NINDS's Building Up the Nerve

S3E2: How to find a mentor

• NINDS • Season 3 • Episode 2

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The third Season of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke’s Building Up the Nerve podcast helps you strengthen your mentoring relationships with tools and advice from both trainees and faculty. We know that navigating your career can be daunting, but we're here to help—it's our job!

In the second episode of the season, we focus on finding mentors that are a good fit, how to choose a research advisor, and how to build a mentoring team.

Featuring Shawn Bates, PhD, Assistant Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience at California State University, Chico; Yesenia Garcia, Neuroscience PhD Student, Emory University; and Kaela Singleton, PhD, Postdoctoral Fellow, Emory University School of Medicine.

Resources

Transcript available at http://ninds.buzzsprout.com/.

Lauren Ullrich:

Welcome to Season Three of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke's Building Up the Nerve, where we help you strengthen your mentoring relationships with tools and advice from both trainees and faculty. We know that navigating your career can be daunting, but we're here to help. It's our job.

Marguerite Matthews:

I'm Marguerite Matthews, a Program Director at NINDS.

Lauren Ullrich:

And I'm Lauren Ullrich, also a Program Director at NINDS. And we're your hosts today.

Marguerite Matthews:

In this Season's first episode, we defined what mentorship is and what different types of mentoring relationships exist, such as peer mentoring, supervisory relationships. In this episode, we want to focus on finding mentors that are a good fit, how to choose a research advisor, and how to build a mentoring team.[musical interlude]

Lauren Ullrich:

Our guests today are Dr. Shawn Bates, Yesenia Garcia, and Dr. Kaela Singleton. So let's get started with our introductions.

Shawn Bates:

My name is Shawn Bates. I am an assistant professor of Psychology and Neuroscience at California State University Chico also known as Chico State. And, um, just briefly, I'm interested in environmental factors that contribute to adolescent drug use. So using rodent models, my students and I manipulate social environment and stress and then measure a drug response in adolescent male and female mice. And the goal of our research is to elucidate the unique vulnerability to drug use in adolescents. And my mentoring experience, uh, as a faculty member, I mentor graduate students, who are Master's students and undergrads, and as a postdoc, I mentored undergrads and high school students. Also as a graduate student, I did that. Uh, but I also love mentoring outside of the lab. So, I am a faculty mentor for a program for first-generation students from low income backgrounds. And so I like mentoring all over the place. Um, and so my mentoring philosophy, I guess in three words, would be encouraging, cheerleading, and guiding.

Yesenia Garcia:

Hi, my name is Yesenia Garcia and I am a second year neuroscience PhD student at Emory University in the lab of Shannon Gourley. So my project explores how social experiences can influence reward related decision-making. And so to give kind of a real world example of this, we might choose to go to a restaurant over another restaurant because it's associated with a first date that went really well. And so, the goal of my work is to use behavior, chemogenetics, and, um, calcium imaging in rodents to better understand the cortical amygdala connections controlling, uh, value-based social decision-making and investigate how this process is then affected by adolescent social isolation. And this work is important because patients with neuropsychiatric disorders, such as depression and anxiety, often exhibit decreased motivation to participate in these social interactions due to a loss of subjective value derived from them. And so my research is trying to shed a light on this process. And, um, for my mentoring philosophy, three words that are used to describe it are patience, uh, authenticity and empathy.

Kaela Singleton:

Hi, I'm Kaela Singleton. I'm a postdoctoral fellow at Emory University in the cell biology department. My research focuses on understanding how the brain develops in normal and pathological conditions by using rare genetic diseases. And the overall goal of this approach is to identify sort of basic level processes that we sort of take for granted during development. Um, and I do this work in fly and mouse models right now in the Faundez lab, looking at Menkes disease, uh, which is a progressive form of childhood neurodegeneration that is triggered by dysregulation of copper. My mentorship experience. I think it's pretty vast in terms of early career scientists; I've worked with and mentored high school students, undergraduate students, grad students, and postdocs as well. I have experience as like a formal and an informal mentor. Um, and when I think about like the three words that describe my philosophy, it's really adaptability, being affirming, and being permissive.[musical interlude]

Marguerite Matthews:

Okay. So can each of you tell us how you approach finding your formal mentors? This could be your research advisors or people on your dissertation committee, or even those of you who are a little bit more advanced, how you continue to choose your formal mentors.

Kaela Singleton:

Um, so I'll talk, I guess, first about how I found my graduate school mentors and then how I was a little bit more intentional about finding my postdoc mentor. Um, so in graduate school I found my mentors through like the PhD interview process. And I didn't really think much about it. I liked them as people and I liked their science and that was really as much thought as I put into it. There wasn't a lot of substance there. Um, they had cool work and I needed a lab to work in. And I don't recommend that method at all[chuckles] in hindsight . With finding Victor, my postdoc mentor, I was really intentional about asking him a lot of questions about his career and his path, um, his experience as a scientist. And one of the biggest things for me was doing a lot of introspection and thinking about the ways that I wanted to grow as a post-doc. And also, the ways that I didn't want to grow, like things that I didn't want to work on about myself, that I was okay with just kind of being flaws or skills that I would lean on other people for. And for me, a lot of that boiled down to like, how well do I communicate with this person? And that was really important in picking my postdoc mentor for me. Because I, even though I am, like, a really big personality, sometimes I struggle to communicate, um, when I need help or when I'm feeling challenged. And so having a postdoc mentor that I can be really open with that with was like essential for me.

Shawn Bates:

I was thinking as Kaela was speaking that I agree with all of that. So when I was thinking about my, um, PhD mentors, I was thinking about the science that they did. And, um, I definitely think it's a better idea to think about what you need to grow. But I'm thinking about, I did a master's program too, and I really had no idea what I wanted then. I was just a little baby and so[chuckles], for my Master's mentor, I was looking for someone who I liked what they wrote on their page and I just kinda went for it. And then I also did something that, that I was surprised I did, but I sent them an email to see how we might fit together. So I I've approached some of my formal mentors through cold emails. And then a lot of mentors I have now are people that I've met through organizations or groups that I've been a part of. So I tell my students and mentees to try and get involved in things. So in NSP, I've met many of my formal and informal mentors. People I still keep in touch with, um, through SPINES, another program, I've met a lot of mentors and then BRAINS was another program. And then, um, through the gatherings that we'd have, I identify people that I thought could help me grow. And so, I advocate to get involved in things and network.

Yesenia Garcia:

Um, so I am a baby in that I just joined my PhD lab a year ago. And so this is all like, still very like fresh to me. But in terms of like finding my PhD lab, when I was first looking for rotations, I talked to a lot of graduate students, um, who I trusted to give me their honest thoughts about their PI and they seem to be very happy in the lab, um, which is how I went about choosing my rotations. Um, and then once I actually got to the lab, I really just trusted my gut and I paid attention to the vibes of the lab. I'm a very, like, colorful human being. So I really wanted an environment where I could be the most authentic version of myself. And my advisor is really excellent at cultivating an inclusive lab culture where that is possible. So I think after a week of being in that lab, I kind of knew that that was the place for me. And thankfully, they also really liked me and it ended up working out and I'm really happy with my decision to join the lab.

Lauren Ullrich:

That's great to hear.

Marguerite Matthews:

And I love that you described yourself as a colorful human being because of, of what I know about you, that is true, quite literally.[laughs] Also probably more metaphysically, um, and so though you all can't see us in podcast land, I can verify if you follow Yesenia on Twitter, you will see the vibrancy of colors [background laughter].

Lauren Ullrich:

Yeah, exactly. So I think all of you really talked about the importance of kind of knowing yourself and knowing, um, what you would need in a mentor but like specifically, are there any kind of questions that you would recommend asking, um, a potential mentor or are there particular red flags that you think that trainees should be on the lookout for when they're trying to decide if, if a mentor is a good fit for them.

Kaela Singleton:

I think for me, I always asked my mentors what their five-year plan is? Like, what does the future look like for them as a PI? Are they going to like become a Dean? Are they going to retire? Like what's going to happen with and for them. And I also really explicitly ask them to tell me about their mentorship style. And I find mentors that I like and PIs that I gravitate towards are like, so excited to answer that question. They are so excited to tell you about how they train their students, um, what their trainees even have gone on to do, not just in the realm of academia, but sort of everything in between. And for me, when I think about red flags in terms of like asking questions or having these conversations, I actually really just think about red flags for myself. Like does somebody say something that like makes my tummy hurt. Do I feel awkward? Like does the vibe get weird? Which is, I know not the best advice, cause it's kind of hard to quantify a vibe, but I do think on some level you can tell when someone is being genuine with you or not. And I feel like Yesenia's point too, about talking to other people really helps cement that. And so I try to go into it as like an open conversation as opposed to a questionnaire, but I do try to get the other person to talk about themselves so that I can sort of gauge how they feel about themselves and their mentorship style. And if they feel like there's room for improvement or room for like variability or adaptability.

Shawn Bates:

And I was thinking, when I look for a mentor now, for example, I I sought out a mentor to help me write a grant. And that was intentional that I saw that he has similar research interests that I do. And so I emailed him and said, could we work on this together? But, uh, really what kept me wanting to work with him was his enthusiasm with wanting to work with me, um, how he talked about his students and then what he's done and how much he wanted to connect with someone out of CSU. The CSU system is mostly driven by undergrads. And CSU Chico is a Hispanic serving institution, so he was excited to work with someone like that. The red flags, I agree with Kaela that it's just a vibe, like it just doesn't feel right. Uh, and you have to learn how to trust yourself, to trust your vibes, right? To trust your gut. Um, like if someone makes you feel like you're less than, or not good enough, then it's like, yeah, let's not do that. So, yeah, really the vibes is the red flags for me.

Lauren Ullrich:

You heard it here first. Vibes, very important.[laughter]

Marguerite Matthews:

Do they pass the vibe check?[laughter]

Yesenia Garcia:

Yeah, I would say that something I look for in a mentor is like whether or not they're accessible. And so I have a really good relationship with my PI because her door is always open and I know that she is always like willing to talk to me about anything. And she's just very easy to have a conversation with. And I saw a tweet somewhere that said that your PhD is basically like a five-year long conversation that you have with your PI. So, you should find someone that you really like talking to. And I really like talking to my PI, so I'm having a great time. And, um, I really like that she also treats me like a colleague and I feel like my thoughts and contributions are really valuable and we just have a lot of like mutual respect for one another. And I trust her a lot. So those are some key things that I look for in a mentor. And then on the flip side, like a red flag for me would be someone who doesn't make time for you to talk about like what you're going through in lab or helping you with grants or any, anything like that.

Marguerite Matthews:

I'm thinking about something you just said Yesenia, and also Shawn, some of those things you may not recognize right away. Right? Like it takes time and maybe experience. Have there been any indicators from maybe experiences in the past that you've had where you suspected that maybe it wasn't going to, like that this person wasn't going to be accessible because of maybe how they responded during an interview or, you know, when you were doing your rotation that you didn't get enough of a sense that like, this is going to be a person that I will work well with.

Kaela Singleton:

I think I've definitely had like the reverse of that, where the vibe was off. And I said to my 22 year old self, I can persevere through this vibe being off. Like, I know that I can't talk to them or ever get them in a meeting or in a room, but maybe through magic or just like my sparkling personality, I can convince them to like, give me better mentorship and mentorship that I need. And that was not true. That was false. But I do think that question also brings up a really cool point that I feel like both Shawn and Yesenia touched on, which is like the idea of learning about yourself and growing in your mentor relationship, and how your mentor needs change over time too.

Marguerite Matthews:

I think also talking with other trainees in the lab, you can get a sense, right? Like without a straight questionnaire, but you can get a sense of if their PI is accessible, available, or just willing and welcoming. Right? Like having an open door policy means nothing if you're very disgruntled when a student walks in to ask you a question, right?[laughs] So, um, you can find answers to your questions, perhaps even without directly interacting with a potential mentor and finding other people who may have had certain experiences that will at least give you new data to make a decision. Is this something that I'm willing to take a risk on having a five-year conversation with, um, or maybe a five-year one way conversation?[laughs] Cause it's just you and they're not, uh, reciprocating.

Lauren Ullrich:

Yeah. And I think I like the strategy of talking to like multiple people in the lab because we know mentoring is not one size fits all and mentors have different strengths and weaknesses. And one of my favorite questions is what kind of person thrives in this lab? And hearing that from multiple different people. And if you sort of , start sensing common themes, like, you have to be a self-starter or you have to be someone who's okay with a lot of oversight. You start picking up these themes and then you can say like, oh, that's not me. Or like, oh yeah, this sounds great, right? And that's another one of the questions that I really like.

Shawn Bates:

Something that I was thinking that I wanted to say was I mentioned reaching out to people because of what they could do for me. And I don't know, I have students who say I can't do that. Like if they feel bad about intentionally trying to talk to people, if they can help them or because of what they can get from them. And I think it's okay to ask like, essentially, what service can you provide me and then talk about what you can give them too.'Cause it should be a two way street.

Lauren Ullrich:

Yeah. I guess kind of along those lines, um, we've been talking a lot about sort of the primary mentor, but a lot of times in graduate school, like you're also building other formal relationships, like the dissertation committee, a lot of postdocs have post-doctoral advisory committees, even faculty now, a lot of times you have maybe like a formal faculty member , or even a committee that's sort of helping you get to tenure. And so obviously when you have a group of people, you probably want to be considering their different strengths and weaknesses and how they can kind of compliment each other. And do you have any advice on building your advisory committees?

Yesenia Garcia:

I have not built my dissertation committee yet. I'm just going to listen to the older folks.[laughter]

Kaela Singleton:

I have a postdoc advisory committee and I built it before I started my post-doc, um, but I am from like the Atlanta area. So I knew a lot of faculty members. And so it was really important to me to have faculty at different career stages on my committee, just so that I could share their experience, um, and they could sort of tell me what the job market was like for them, like a year ago, as opposed to like 20 years ago. That was really important. It was also really important for me to have black women specifically on my post-doctoral advisory committee, just to have someone who would have like a shared experience or perspective as me. I'm pretty sure most of my advisory committee is women. And I found them on my own. I did ask Victor, my PI, if he like knew of anybody that could help. But a lot of it was me just like looking at their portfolio, like the type of science that they do, the type of advocacy and outreach that they have, um, if they had any, and what their priorities are. And it, I did again, pick it really based off a vibe. Like I met with each one of them, and we just talked about like where they were in their career and like what they liked and didn't like what they would do differently. And they had some like really pointed questions for me about like what I wanted to do with my life that I wasn't really ready to answer. Um, so [laughter]. It was nice, but it kind of felt like conversing, like Yesenia said earlier, like conversing with colleagues, um, as opposed to like people I put on this pedestal and I feel like that was really, that's a big difference for me between my like dissertation committee and my post-doctoral advisory committee, which is cool.

Shawn Bates:

So my dissertation committee, my primary advisor and I put that together based on one person, he was a consultant for the, his science. The other one was kind of a co-mentor, our labs were intermingled, and then we had to choose a fourth that was out of our department. And so with that, I mean, I kind of picked somebody that I liked because I, I wanted to go into my meetings yeah, talk to people I like. But I don't have a formal faculty mentoring committee. I have one formal faculty mentor who is an excellent teacher here. And Chico is a primarily undergrad institution where you're teaching focused. And so, um, I talk to him about lesson planning and lecturing, and managing the classroom and all that, and he does observations. But then I also have an informal person who I talk to about doing research at a teaching focused institution. Before this, I was at R1 schools mostly. And it's my first faculty position. So there's a black faculty staff association, so I have mentors in that who talked to me about being a black faculty member at a predominantly white institution. So I've just kind of cobbled together a mentoring group with all of my needs. I have a lot of needs.

Marguerite Matthews:

Um, Yesenia. Does that bring anything to mind for you in like maybe things that you would think about in choosing dissertation committee folks?

Yesenia Garcia:

Yeah. So like what Shawn was saying really stuck with me and in the future, I really want like my dissertation committee to be a place where I can walk in and feel comfortable and know that the people there aren't out to get me in a way they, like, they want to[laughs], um, help me reach my fullest potential and be very supportive of me. So I think like personality, as well as like science fit, is important. I want people who have my back, basically.

Marguerite Matthews:

Yeah. And I think sometimes having your back can look different, right? People who are going to challenge you, who are going to say, like, why are you doing these experiments? This is a waste of your time. Maybe you should consider doing this other thing. And even if you disagree, they're challenging you to think a little bit harder about the science, about what you're bringing to the table. And maybe this takes wisdom and age, perhaps, of discerning people who are challenging you because they know that you'll rise to the occasion versus people who are challenging you because they don't think you can do it, or they think you're, you know, you haven't thought well enough about it. And that sort of brings me to another question about, for those of you who have sort of these informal mentors or people who are not, sort of, formally connected to your actual current research work, um, what are the differences between your formal and informal mentors? And do you pick informal mentors based on what you're not getting in these other more formal relationships and where do you even find someone to be your mentor? I mean Shawn, you talked about having some informal mentors. Do you just like walk up to somebody at a conference and like, Hey, can you help me? Or, or do you really think about it? Is it something that's sort of organic and you just you're like, oh, I really do see this person as a mentor.

Shawn Bates:

A lot of my informal mentors they're informal because they're peer mentors. So there's not like a designated group of mentoring, that they're just people that I met. I won't shout out names [laughter] through NSP, through SPINES, through BRAINS.

Marguerite Matthews:

This could be like your rap song Shawn. It's okay. You can just shout out people's names. I mean...[laughter].

Shawn Bates:

I do like shouting out names.

Kaela Singleton:

You can make your producer tag right now.

Marguerite Matthews:

There we go.

Lauren Ullrich:

Yeah

Shawn Bates:

But anyway.. Yeah. So a lot of my informal mentors are peer mentors that, well, you know, have my back, but also can tell me like, "This grant is bad. You need to fix it."[laughs] You need to, you need to edit this paper, or we talk about how, you know, starting our labs together and what that's been like. And then other informal mentors or people that I met at conferences or, or through other people, they might say, oh, I have this person you should talk to. I've met a lot of people that way, is informational interviews, and then they say, oh, you should go talk to this person.

Kaela Singleton:

I agree. So most of my informal mentors are like peer mentorships and I, unsurprisingly to anybody, met a lot of them on Twitter. And I think Dr. Ubadah Sabbagh is like one of my biggest peer mentors and informal mentors. Um, and we're in the same DSPAN fellowship, and that's how we met. And for me, those informal mentorship relationships, I use them a lot of the times as like a reality check when I'm like going through a difficult situation or I'm like struggling writing a grant or something like that. It's hard, 'cause they also they're also like friendships, but I can just be my most authentic self and like cry and like swear a lot and be like, is it me? Am I the drama? And sometimes I am [laughter].

Marguerite Matthews:

Am I the villain?

Kaela Singleton:

And a hundred percent, they will tell me like, yes, Kaela, it is you. We can like regroup and come back to this, but this is a you problem. And I think that that's really important and valuable, especially in science when you're like getting so much constructive criticism sometimes but just like criticism and feedback about your performance and what you do. Sometimes there are going to be days where you just need to be sad about it.[chuckles] And for me, those informal mentor relationships are really helpful in that to have someone who's in a similar career stage or career path, or someone who is like moving into that space to give you the reality check of like, this is what you've worked for. So you gotta like learn how to take the criticism or like, yeah, this was kind of unfair, but there's like something we can do about it. And it's just nice to have people to talk to that you don't have to like explain what a postdoc is. They like know the experience and so I feel like that's really helpful.

Yesenia Garcia:

Yeah. So one of my informal mentors is actually on this podcast right now and it's Kaela![laughs] And, um, I connected with Kaela a couple of years ago because I was at SfN and I heard her give a really cool talk about like being the Beyoncé of Neuroscience. And then afterwards, I like reached out to her on Twitter and I was like, oh my God, I'm your biggest fan. I love you. Um, [laughs]

Marguerite Matthews:

I'm going to challenge you on that Yesenia. I'm her biggest fan, but continue [laughter].

Yesenia Garcia:

But yeah, but by complete coincidence a year later, like we both moved to Emory. And so that was super awesome, um, because now we get to see each other in real life. And so I really enjoy talking to Kaela because she was a grad student not too long ago. And so we talk about the day to day, like how to get by in grad school and she's like really good at giving advice on how to balance everything. And she really inspires me with her philosophies on like self care and, um, romanticizing your life.[laughter] I feel like that's what's getting me through grad school is like that mindset of like positivity and like treating yourself to things you deserve.

Marguerite Matthews:

Uh, also like a sub-question. Do you all think that it's, it's difficult for people who maybe are not as outgoing or maybe a little more socially reserved? Um, I don't want to make this an introvert extrovert thing, because I think often we confuse what that actually means, but for people who are maybe more shy or maybe have a lot more reservations. I don't know if any of you personally experienced that, but do you think that you have to be more outgoing in order to be able to establish informal mentoring relationships?

Kaela Singleton:

I don't think you have to be. I do think it makes it a little bit easier. Like no one will believe this; I am a deeply introverted person. If given the opportunity to stay in my house for three days and not talk to anybody, I will take it every single time. But I've had to learn to be just like a little bit more outspoken. The key is the strategy that I use, is like I am outgoing on the internet, and I will like engage with people when I have the energy. I make all of my friends in those moments. And then I take them back with me to my cave of introverted, quiet shyness. So I think it helps. But I don't think you have to do it all the time. Like you can use your energy really wisely. So like, if it's conference season, you're like at a conference and someone's like, live tweeting an event or something like that, or you like, see people. You can just like pick and choose your friends in that moment, like three or four people, two people, maybe. You talk to them, you exchange information, and then you go back about your way. But I do think it is a little bit easier if you are like outgoing.

Marguerite Matthews:

I think now with the pandemic, virtual points of contact are so much more seen as a very, you know, like a way that you can connect with people. And so if you are maybe a little shy and it's awkward to just walk up to somebody at a conference, you can sort of do it on your own time. You know, you can have the discussion with someone in a way that like allows you to not maybe feel the awkwardness of the situation at the time. So people don't see that, like you're just sweating, [laughs] like maybe it's just having a moment, you know, all the pep talking that maybe you had to do to walk up to that person, um, that there's an opportunity to reach out to people via social media, sending an email or connecting with some of these other communities of folks where that's their currency is connecting people and allowing people to build relationship in a way that has a little less pressure and a little bit more welcoming and inclusive in a way that maybe it doesn't seem like maybe you don't know what it's like, what the person is like when you're just standing at a poster. But then when you see how they're interacting on Twitter, you're like, oh no, they actually do seem like a decent human being. And I want to talk to them. I want to learn more.

Kaela Singleton:

I will say another strategy that I used in grad school, I would just make friends with one super outgoing person and just be their like little sidekick. And so all their friends are my friends and I was like, now we're, we're a group.

Marguerite Matthews:

Oh is that why I have so many introverted friends?

Kaela Singleton:

Probably!

Marguerite Matthews:

Because they see me as the outgoing one.[laughter] Kaela, you just blow my mind. Oh my gosh. It makes so sense now.

Kaela Singleton:

I do that, uh, Ubadah is probably like, I call him like the mayor of neuroscience. So whenever we're at a conference together, I will just go hang out with him. I've met so many really cool people.

Lauren Ullrich:

Yeah, that's a great strategy. My, um, biggest nightmare is small talk and walking into like a networking happy hour where I just have to come up with conversational topics. Like, I, I can't do that. I like start shaking. It's so bad. And a lot of these programs, even like I was a AAAS fellow, a lot of the networking that they do is just sort of throw you all in a room with some wine and see what happens. And that's not the way I work. So I think another strategy that I've used is volunteering for things where you're doing something. You have shared goals with, um, other people, and then you have a built-in conversational topic, which is that thing that you're trying to do, and you can sort of establish some working relationships that can then blossom into a more mentoring relationship or more of a friendship. So I don't have to sit there like pretending I know anything about sports or, or other, [laughs] other things that people talk about at networking events.

Marguerite Matthews:

Well, if they were talking about hockey, Lauren, you'd be all up in there.

Lauren Ullrich:

It's true. I can talk about the Capitals till the cows come home, but not a single other sport is in my repertoire.

Shawn Bates:

I also think if you're introverted, having a hype man. So my friends and I have hyped each other up just like, you got it! Just go talk to that Nobel Laureate and then they go do it.

Marguerite Matthews:

Everybody needs a hype person. Yeah, for sure.

Lauren Ullrich:

For sure. I want you to go back to something that Kaela mentioned, which is that she went out of her way to really find black women mentors. Right? That was something that was important to her. And was that important to you, either Yesenia or Shawn to find mentors with those shared characteristics and just in general, do you have any advice for trainees that are the "only" in their program or one of the only, and how can you find mentors that are appropriate for you if you're in that situation?

Yesenia Garcia:

Yeah. So I think having a diverse group of mentors is super important because you shouldn't be dependent on a singular person for all your needs. And so having multiple mentors broadens the range of opinions and voices you have in your world. I have actually, like, never had like a formal mentor who looks like me and I'm okay with that because I feel like I build relationships with people who have empathy and are like willing to put in the time and effort to understand me and my experiences and support me in the ways that I specifically need. And I've been like fortunate to find a lot of those people, which has, like, led to my success. But that being said, like, I do have a support network of peers who share my identities and my experiences and having that community of friends has been really crucial to my success. And so a lot of those people are in the same age range as me. And so it's helpful to have people who are in the same shoes as I am currently.

Shawn Bates:

I think it's very important to have a diverse group, both in terms of the shared identities, and also in terms of having multiple people that have different facets. So, I've definitely cobbled together advice from many different people who either have different expertises or different background experiences that helped me shape mine. So I was the "only" in my graduate program. I was the only black person and, um, it did help tremendously to get involved in SPINES, and other groups like that and to talk to folks like at conferences that shared my identity. So that, one, they helped me realize that I wasn't crazy. Like some of the things I was feeling. They validated my feelings and my experiences. And then they also helped me to gather some strength to push through, 'cause things got really tough at times. And so they helped give me the strength to do that. So for others who are the only, I think it's important to think about what they want to find and then see if they can find that. And Twitter is great because you can just message somebody. I've had people message me to ask me things. And then if they want to, we can meet. But if they don't, then we don't have to. Similarly the Black in Neuro group. I've had someone message me through Black in Neuro and say like, let's chat real quick. And then, it ended up being a long conversation. And now, I look forward to meeting that person again, because we vibed, basically.[chuckle]

Marguerite Matthews:

Pass the vibe check!

Shawn Bates:

Yeah

Kaela Singleton:

I agree with all of that. I think for me, one of the biggest things that I had to learn in grad school was that I could also seek community like outside of Georgetown, specifically. Like, I actually needed to have community and friends who did not do science or know about science. And sort of like, just validate my existence as a person, as weird as that sounds? So I think in my second or third year of graduate school, I was really intentional about making friends within the DC community of other black queer people and spending time with them and learning about what they do and them learning about what I do. And so I feel like that is generally advice that I give to people who are going through that experience of like being the"only" to find your sense of community. Like not just within academia or within science, but like, if you are like a club sports person. And I think that's actually how it started. All of my roommates were like a part of intramural sports. And I am not an intramural sports girl. And I was like, "well, everyone else is busy on Saturdays. So I should find the people that do the stuff I like to do on Saturdays." Um, and I did, and it was really helpful and also gave me like a break. And something I talked to my mentors about instead of just science. Like, oh, I went to like this cool concert, or like I saw this cool thing this weekend. Not, like, I was checking on the cells, again. Everything's fine.

Marguerite Matthews:

I don't think that sounds weird because being a researcher is so, can be very isolating because you are drilling down into a very specific research topic, right? And sometimes, it's like I don't want to ever talk about this topic when I'm not actually having to do it.[laughter] Um, I had a rule in both my graduate years and my postdoc years that if you invite me to happy hour, we can not talk about work. It's a no work rule and anytime people would start talking about work, I would either completely leave altogether or I would go to a different, a different table or a different area because I'm like, I've had it to here with work, so I need to get some space away from there. So I, I totally understand what it means to just, I need my personhood to be validated and I am so much more than just a scientist. So that really resonates with me, Kaela.[musical interlude] Well, thank you all for sharing your wisdom today. Can I ask each of you for one last piece of parting advice for our audience?

Yesenia Garcia:

Yeah, I would say, don't be afraid to like lean on your cohort for support. And really in those first couple of years, make sure to invest like your time and energy into like getting to know the peers around you, because those are the people who are going to be with you for five years, and you're going to go through all your major milestones together. So I think it's really important to have your group of cheerleaders to help get you through the PhD.

Shawn Bates:

So I mentor a post-doc, they're not my post-doc, but they are postdoc at another university and they wanted some mentorship outside of their lab and, and we were going through their mentors. And they were like, I don't have any mentors. And I was like, well, you just told me about this person that emailed you to give this talk. Just one thing I was going to say is for folks who think they might not have mentors, or they don't really know how to find them, your mentors might be right under your nose. You can start working with them to gain access to opportunities or to learn from their experiences and so on and so forth.

Kaela Singleton:

And I think for me the biggest thing that I look for and think about with mentorship is the opportunity for growth. So you growing as a mentee, um, and taking that knowledge and passing it onto someone else, but also as a mentor, watching your, your mentee grow and having your sort of mentor style be refined or like adaptable to the new people coming into your circle. And I feel like that's a really special thing about science and STEM is that your mentors are around for a while and they get to see you sort of blossom and like watch all of your dreams come true. And I, I think that that's something that we kind of like take for granted a lot of the time.

Marguerite Matthews:

Lauren, what's your advice?

Lauren Ullrich:

Sort of to follow up on what everyone else was saying. I think the idea of the mentoring relationship changing over time is one of the really beautiful things about academia in general, but just mentorship in general and, um, as a mentor, like we're always happy to hear from you and celebrate your success, even if it has been a while, right? And mentorship relationships ebb and flow too, right? So sometimes you might be really working together and talking to someone every day and then maybe a year will go by and maybe you feel like, oh, I can't, it's been too long. I dropped the ball. I can't reach out to that person. But I would say, you know, nine times out of 10, the mentor really wants to hear from you. And they probably were really busy too. And maybe you both feel awkward about it, but you know, don't hesitate to reach back out and restart up that relationship. I think it's, it's one of the most satisfying, um, parts of my job is seeing where all of the people that we fund end up and celebrating their successes with them. So I always love to hear about it, even if it's been too long. And Marguerite, what about you?

Marguerite Matthews:

Yeah. I think something really poignant that. Kaela mentioned earlier is about your mentoring needs changing over time. And I think it's also really important to think about, what do I need at this stage in my career? And probably maybe as a graduate student, the science is the most important thing, so finding a bunch of people who can really help strengthen you as a scientist and help you really dig into the research topic area is important at that stage. And maybe as a post-doc, you really care about the science, but you also need people who are going to give you career advice, and are going to be able to move you from one career stage to the next at a really pivotal time that is not as prescriptive as maybe being in a graduate program and being a student under the auspices of various milestones and checkpoints [outro music].

Lauren Ullrich:

That's all we have time for today on Building Up the Nerve. In this season, we're ending every episode with a reflection question. So this episode we invite you to reflect on: what values are important for you to share with your mentors? Thank you to our guests this week for sharing their expertise and thank you to NINDS program director, Dr. Bob Riddle, who composed our theme song and music. We'll see you next time for episode three, where we discuss how to develop a productive relationship with a mentor.

Marguerite Matthews:

You can find past episodes of this podcast and many more grant application resources on the web at NINDS.NIH.Gov. Follow us on Twitter@NINDSDiversity and @NINDSFunding. You can email us with questions at NINDSNervePod@nih.gov. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast on apple podcasts or your favorite podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode. We'll see you next time.