NINDS's Building Up the Nerve

S3E4: Adaptive mentoring

• NINDS • Season 3 • Episode 4

Share episode

The third Season of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke’s Building Up the Nerve podcast helps you strengthen your mentoring relationships with tools and advice from both trainees and faculty. We know that navigating your career can be daunting, but we're here to help—it's our job!

In the fourth episode of the season, we focus on adaptive and resilient mentoring. While this is an evergreen topic, the last two years of the COVID-19 pandemic have tested the limits of our mentoring relationships. In this episode, we discuss how mentors and mentees can navigate these challenges.

Featuring Theanne Griffith, PhD, Assistant Professor, UC Davis, Sarah Kucenas, PhD, Professor of Biology, University of Virginia, and Raele Robison, PhD, CCC-SLP, Postdoctoral Fellow, University of Wisconsin-Madison.

Resources

Transcript available at http://ninds.buzzsprout.com/.

Lauren Ullrich:

[intro music] Welcome to Season Three of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke's Building Up the Nerve, where we help you strengthen your mentoring relationships with tools and advice from both trainees and faculty. We know that navigating your career can be daunting, but we're here to help. It's our job.[intro music fades] I'm Lauren Ullrich, a program director at NINDS.

Marguerite Matthews:

And I'm Marguerite Matthews, a program director at NINDS. And we're your hosts today.

Lauren Ullrich:

This episode will focus on adaptive and resilient mentoring. And while this is an evergreen topic, the last two years of the COVID-19 pandemic has really tested the limits of some of our mentoring relationships. Um, the pandemic is its own challenge, of course, but it has also exacerbated other challenges, like finding proper childcare, addressing health concerns, accessibility for individuals with disabilities, and many more. And one of the things we want to talk about with this episode is how can mentors and mentees successfully navigate these challenges?[musical interlude]

Marguerite Matthews:

All right, let's get to our guests today: Dr. Theanne Griffith, Dr. Sarah Kucenas, and Dr. Raele Robison.

Theanne Griffith:

Hello everybody, my name is Theanne Griffith. I'm currently an Assistant Professor at the University of California, Davis in the Department of Physiology and Membrane Biology. My lab is broadly interested in somatosensation and the ion channels that transmits somato sensory signals, such as pain, proprioception, and temperature in both health and disease. And we really use a compliment of techniques that span ion channel biophysics to animal behavior. If I could describe my mentoring style in three words, I would say open, approachable, and accepting.

Sarah Kucenas:

Hi everyone. My name is Sarah Kucenas. I'm a Full Professor of Biology at the University of Virginia. And my lab is very broadly interested in how you build a nervous system. And we particularly focus on the role of glial cells and how glial glial interactions help sculpt the nervous system during development, so then also, after disease or injury, when you're trying to regrow portions of your nervous system. If I were to describe my mentoring style in three words, I would say role model, champion and cheerleader.

Raele Robison:

Hello, my name is Raele Robison. I'm a current postdoctoral fellow at the University of Wisconsin Madison. Um, if I would describe my research, it would really be nutritional homeostasis and functional reserves and how swallowing problems or dysphasia interrupts our ability to eat and hydrate properly. And I'm specifically right now focused on this theme in frail older adults and patients with Alzheimer's disease and related dementias. Although I haven't done a lot of mentoring, so I'm kind of coming at this from the mentee perspective, and something that I would really value in a mentor is someone who's an advocate, someone who's a listener, and again, someone who's just a cheerleader for you.

Marguerite Matthews:

I think we might have enough to start a cheerleading squad.[laughter] There's a lot of cheerleaders here! I love it.

Lauren Ullrich:

I know all I'm thinking though, is that really competitive cheerleading where everyone's like going up and pyramids and stuff, and I don't think my body could handle that. So [laughter], we need to do the old fashioned style.[laughs]

Marguerite Matthews:

You can be the bottom of the pyramid. That's just as important. You've got to have a solid foundation to be able to flip people up in the air.

Lauren Ullrich:

That's true.[musical interlude] When you have been a mentee or if you're currently a mentee, are you, or have you been comfortable with telling your mentor or mentors about the specific types of support you need? And why or why not? Like what can a mentor do to make that kind of request more or less comfortable?

Raele Robison:

Well, I'll get started with this one. And just for a little bit of context, I am a person that has two pretty serious, um, illnesses I got diagnosed with when I was going through my PhD program. So I feel like going through the situation where I turned from being a researcher and student as my primary identity to then being a patient as my primary identity required a lot of transparency and vulnerability on my part. I think something that my mentor did, that was really great, was that she was very open and receptive to this type of transition and kind of taking a back seat and letting me lead in that kind of situation, which built up a level of trust that I think we really needed for that transparency and vulnerability to be there. And I think beyond that, the trust really extended to this idea that I knew that if I gave her information, it wouldn't be used against me in a retaliatory way, in a way that would harm me. Um, and that she wouldn't take anything I was telling her and spread it to people that didn't need to know about it. Or she would really just use that to help advocate for me, um, and really just, again, just championed me, cheerlead me on, and support me in that way. So I think just knowing that there was that baseline trust there really helped afford that relationship where we could be very open and transparent about the things that were going on with me.

Marguerite Matthews:

Can I ask how you knew that about her? Is that something you were looking for when you were choosing her as a mentor? I mean, as you mentioned, this is something that developed after you already started graduate school. So what was it about her that let you know, "I can trust her?"

Raele Robison:

Yes, I think it was something I learned after I started working with her. I worked with her for a pretty long period of time. I started working with her when I was a Master's student. And by the time I got sick, this was about like four or five years into our relationship. But I will say all the projects, papers that we had worked on prior to that, you know, I think there are times when we as mentees question what our mentors are doing. We're like, we don't know, like, they're just saying this and they're just making me do all this extra work. But at the end of the day, everything that she told me to do, told me to invest my time in, had always been for my best interest. So I think that's what really built up that trust was that she had never led me astray with any type of project we had done, any sort of paper, any sort of collaboration she brought me into. So I felt like I could trust her with those small things, so then I could trust her with this really big thing that was happening to me.

Theanne Griffith:

Yeah, I can add a little bit on to that. Um, when I was a graduate student, right before I started my PhD program, my mother was diagnosed with terminal breast cancer. And so I went into grad school with kind of a lot on my shoulders. And when I was searching for a graduate lab, I already kind of knew that information, and it was very important for me that the lab that I was going to join knew that I had things going on in the background that could potentially affect my productivity, that could potentially affect the amount of time that I was going to be spending in lab. You know, my mother was in Maryland. I was at Northwestern in Chicago. So I was flying out on a monthly basis. So I had, you know, half-day Fridays once a month and having that laid out at the very beginning, and I was very open about that with my PI, and he was very, um, understanding very, very understanding. And that was a huge part of the reason why I joined his lab. It was a very much of a family kind of style environment. His wife was our lab manager, you know, and so it just had that, um, that feel to it. And, and it was really, really important to be able to convey to him, you know, all of the things that were going on in my background without necessarily diving into the deep, deep details. But having that open line of communication was really, um, helpful for me, and I think really shaped how I decide to mentor the people in my lab now.

Marguerite Matthews:

So given your experiences with your own mentors, how do you help a trainee through a situation that maybe you've never experienced before? Or aren't sure about how maybe to approach it because you yourself haven't, um, experienced it.

Sarah Kucenas:

I think that's a fantastic question. And the thing that I learned very quickly when I started my lab is that most of the things that my trainees are going through, I have personally never experienced. And that's because each, um, scientist that comes through my lab comes from a different background with different perspectives and different life experiences. And I very quickly realized that it's not my job to necessarily fix things for them. What I do is I try to create a safe space where there's no judgment, that things are confidential and I let them speak. Oftentimes just speaking to somebody that they feel is listening is a huge step, and then being able to kind of wrap their head around whatever the situation is that they're going through. If the relationship has built strong enough, meaning we've been together longer than a couple of weeks [chuckles], you know, I ask, can I help you find resources? Right? Especially if it's something that I've not experienced, I'll say, do you mind if I speak confidentially with someone or would you like me to reach out to a colleague that I think might be very helpful? And so I very quickly kind of let them know, I'm not their only resource that I am grateful that they trust me to come speak to me, but that they can trust me to help them find someone else or a resource or an infrastructure at the university that might be helpful to them. And through working through their situations, whatever it may be, I also grow and I let them know that as well, that by them sharing with me, it's helping me be a better mentor for them. But also future, you know, trainees that come through the lab.

Theanne Griffith:

I can just add on and say that I think you made like a really important point about saying that you kind of let them talk to you and you kind of provide space for them to tell you what they need to tell you with your goal not to solve their problems, but to help them. And I think that's a really important transition that I'm trying to learn as a new PI, right? Because I'm used to being in more of like a colleague role, like a peer role, and now I'm not.[laughs] Now I'm kind of the head of the lab, and while I'd love to interact in the way that I used to, maybe when I was a postdoc with the people in the lab, I can't. It's not quite the same dynamic. I'm actually taking notes [laughs] and will plan to incorporate, you know, that idea as I move forward because those transitions are not always, you know, evident, especially for us new PIs coming from a postdoc role. And sometimes it takes us a bit to make that mental leap of where we stand in relation to the people, um, in our lab and our responsibilities in that role.

Raele Robison:

Yeah, I think your point about not trying to fix a situation was really important. Um, it can be really frustrating. Again, my perspective, just somebody that lives with chronic illness slash disability, everyone always wanted to give solutions. Like, oh, have you tried yoga? Have you tried eating better? You know? And it was like, that's not what I needed. I had my doctors and my team and myself, you know.[laughs] I knew the types of things I needed. So what was more effective for me during that time and, and other situations I faced as well was when my mentor just directly asked me, how can I support you? What do you need from me? Um, and that was just a much better way to approach the situation where I was kind of put into the driver's seat and saying, as a person living in this body with these types of limitations now, this is what I need you to do for me to accommodate me and make this the best situation as possible. So I think just approaching it from this idea of, we can't always fix these things. I still have, you know, my illnesses, so they didn't go away. But she supported me through the process and was able to provide the necessary accommodations and support to help me reach my goals.

Marguerite Matthews:

Yeah, I think this is really good advice even if you have had a similar situation, right? Because what you experienced may be different from what your mentee actually needs, or maybe they just want you to hear them and they don't want you to fix it. They just want you to support them through it. Um, so I, I really liked the idea of allowing a person to decide how they want to be helped if they know, and maybe they don't know. And then you can maybe put a little bit more pressure there and help guide them. Um, but I really appreciate those perspectives.

Sarah Kucenas:

One important thing I've also learned, after having these kinds of conversations with trainees and scientists in the lab, is tell them, you know, I'm here. And I might ask how you're doing, but please tell me if you would like me to not talk about it anymore, like, I leave the door open to make sure that they know that if I stop asking about it, it's not because I don't care. It's because I am respecting whatever boundary they would like, because sometimes it's a single interaction, which is perfect. If I can give them the space, but sometimes they want that repeated interaction, and so I also leave the space for them to tell me, would they like this to become part of, kind of, a regular mentoring experience? Or was this more of a short term interaction that they'll come back to me if they would like more feedback? And so I make sure that they also know that the conversations moving forward are up to them and their comfort level.

Lauren Ullrich:

Yeah. And I, you know, I think sometimes trainees are really, um, reticent to approach mentors with the challenges that they're facing, especially if they're more in the personal space. Um, and so, are there any ways that you found to be productive when you think maybe something's going on, but the trainee hasn't approached you, um, but you want to, you know, be there to support them or just let them know that you're there. Like, what are the strategies that you use in that kind of situation?

Sarah Kucenas:

My first approach with letting trainees, mentees in the lab, know that they can come to me with anything as well, some of it's heavy handed, where I'll tell them,[chuckle] I am completely open to anything you want to share with me. Um, and sometimes that doesn't work. So one of the ways where I try to just facilitate a relationship that goes beyond the office, because sometimes they come into the office and the interaction is very different. I'll ask people how their weekends were, you know, kind of superficially or I'll tell them what I did over a weekend or the vacation my family took over the holidays just to kind of let them know that I also view them as a colleague and a friend in a sense, and that I feel comfortable sharing with them and that I want them to feel comfortable sharing with me. I never push it past that, but I think students and postdocs in the lab have appreciated that I acknowledged that they have a life outside of lab and that, kind of letting them know that I'm interested, that they're at least happy and healthy in their emotional state. And that has helped them feel like they can come to me maybe a little bit more personally when they know that I care about things, again, outside of the lab bench.

Theanne Griffith:

Yeah, I just wanted to add on, to talk a little bit about an experience that actually happened to me, um, over the summer. There was an undergraduate student in the lab, um, who was, you know, doing great and working well, and then all of a sudden, I just noticed that she was becoming less responsive. You know, and like not coming in when she said she would, you know, not analyzing data, uh, in a timely fashion. And, you know, she has been wonderful in the lab, so I was pretty sure that there was something going on in the background, but I assumed that it was school-related. That she was just a little bit overwhelmed with her classes and was just having to leave the research aside. And so I had to have a conversation with her asking her, you know, why don't you just focus on your classes for the moment and then maybe in a couple months, come back to lab when you're ready. And then when she did that, you know, it was a kind of a tough conversation, um, but when she came back, she then revealed to me some things that were going on in the background that were impacting her very severely. And I kind of wished that I would have.[Sighs], I'm not sure what I wish actually. I don't know if I wish that I would've known about that sooner or if I could have facilitated her acknowledging this to me, or maybe she just needed that time away in order to be able to talk about that situation. And I, I just say this to highlight how tricky it can be, you know, that it's hard when you see somebody who's performance changes, and you would try and ask them, you know, how you can support them. Um, sometimes time is just what people need and sometimes a little bit of space is also what people need. In looking back, I wish I would've known sooner, but maybe I actually didn't need to know sooner. And, and you know, now she's back and she's hit the ground running and she's been really successful in the lab at the moment. So I just wanted to highlight that experience as it's often not black and white, and there's often not a, you know, easy and fast way to always hit the nail on the head when it comes to mentorship.

Lauren Ullrich:

Yeah. I mean, I think that's so important. Like Marguerite, like you were saying earlier about everyone is different. And even if we are going through the exact same thing, like we're going to have really different needs and some people really want to talk about it and some people don't want to talk about it at all. And it's a constant negotiation. Even people you've been friends with for 30 years, like you can still make mistakes and missteps and you know them so intimately. That, that's a really, really important point of it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to work through it together, as long as that foundation of trust is there and we know that each person is sort of coming from a good place, it's a lot easier to work through those kinds of issues as long as that's there.

Raele Robison:

So I think from a mentee perspective, I think part of the hesitation at times with approaching mentors or anybody in a position of kind of power over you is that there's something about academia, it's like a pressure cooker, right? It's a very high pressure situation where you have to constantly be meeting these milestones. And so I think it, it comes from this place that assumes a lot of wellness of the person that's supposed to be undertaking these different types of tasks. So I remember when I was going through my sickness and I also know friends and myself that we struggled with mental health issues at times as well. But you feel this pressure of like, I always have to show up and I have to be a hundred percent and I have to publish this paper and get this done. And so it can be really hard when you feel like people have these expectations of you to feel like you're letting them down in that way, that you're not going to be able to get that paper or run that experiment or whatever it might be. So I think what was helpful for me was when my mentor kind of let me off the hook a little bit, and she was like, you know, it doesn't matter to me if it takes you eight years to graduate, like you're going to graduate, we'll figure it out. You just might need a little bit of time, you know? So I think just any ways that you can kind of take some of that pressure off and some of those expectations is really helpful because from a mentee perspective, we're just kind of in this state where we want to please and do things for other people and not really take care of ourselves sometimes during that process.

Theanne Griffith:

I just want to quickly say that's a really helpful to remember and to think about. And it's something that I've noticed as a new PI. I kind of almost already forgot. It's impressive how quickly [laughs] you can forget these things, but I've almost already forgot that feeling of pressure. Like I have my own pressure right now, but I really try and keep the environment very kind of exciting so that people don't feel the pressure, but they feel more like enthusiasm. But I actually do see this a lot in the lab, how much they stress over certain things like their qualifying exams or, you know, thesis committees and looking back, I'm like, oh, don't even worry about that, so what if you fail it, take the qual again. It doesn't matter. It's not on your record. But I forget about that pressure that they're feeling. And I have a fairly intense personality, and so that's something that I'm constantly trying to work out and check, you know, am I pushing too much in the wrong moment? Because for me, it's just enthusiasm. It's excitement. It's like, let's go get this data. You know, let's go publish this paper. But I realize, and thank you for reminding me, too, that, that really is a pressure. And that needs to be alleviated as best as possible, when possible.

Sarah Kucenas:

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think since I've been doing this for a few years, what I've realized is so important, is to also show that I feel pressures and I don't succeed all the time and I'm human and I'm a mother and I run to get the school bus, right? And just, again, it's a different set of pressures. I completely agree, but that we're all human and we're all in this pressure cooker. And that while, you know, I am the PI of the lab that I am just as susceptible for bad days and, and just letting them know that it's okay to be human [chuckles] in this space. And I think that's something even broader conversation we need to be talking about, right? That to raise, you know, and champion our best mentees to be successful is to tell them that to be human is most important, right? And that's where they're gonna find their success.

Marguerite Matthews:

So, Sarah, you mentioned before about how you create a space to open communication by saying, asking people in your lab how their weekend was, or sharing a bit about your weekend. Are there any other specific strategies that you know that have worked in helping sort of build communication and trust with your mentees, but also allow there to be a level of professionalism and perhaps not have, you know, your trainees just sharing [chuckle] all the drama of their life with you? Like, I'm your friend, but I'm not your friend, you know what I mean?[laughs]

Sarah Kucenas:

Yeah, it's a great question and I don't have an answer, so maybe [laughs] Theanne, or maybe someone else has an answer, but I can, you know, for me, I find if I share a little bit of myself and share the level that I'm comfortable with, meaning not super personal, but as a mother, right, I started my lab, um, 13 years ago and it just so happened that myself and one of my first graduate students were pregnant at the same time. And so, [laughs] that was a trip by the way, [laughs] the lab was like, wow, that's a lot of pregnant lady. But it was sharing what I went through and now I share being a mother and juggling all of these things and that's allowed both men and women in my lab to feel comfortable talking about parenting, right? So I found that if I show that line of what I'm comfortable with, those that are comfortable we'll come to that same line. Um, when I have had a couple students come to me with things that are maybe beyond the line that I didn't imagine what, what would occur, I again, try to create the safe space. I listen, I don't cut them off. I don't judge them. But what I'll say is, this is definitely outside my wheelhouse, how can I help you find the resources that will help you with these decisions. Or, you know, so I try not to, again, create any sort of judgment, but kind of just reinstate that, wow, this might not be the best place for this conversation, where can we get you the space where you find that this will be most helpful. I want them to know that my level of respect and trust for them is that they could call me at any moment. And if they needed something because they don't have family around, I am there. I will pick up the cell phone and I will drive to Dulles if they can't get on their flight.

Marguerite Matthews:

Oh, that's commitment. You know, that is a, [laughs] that is a serious commitment to say you'll go to Dulles to pick ... [laughs]

Sarah Kucenas:

but I want them to know that there's a professional line, but also I care, again, about them as humans. And that in the absence of anybody else, if there's an emergency I'm here. So that's, that's a long answer to say the line is fuzzy and I'm still trying to find it, but I want them to know that I care about them as people. And sometimes that means we don't talk about science in our meetings. Sometimes it has to be something else because that helps them do better science or be a better scientist just by having that ability to talk.

Theanne Griffith:

Yeah, I really agree with that. And in terms of, you know, uh, the PI sharing to kind of set the tone, I think that's a really great strategy and that's what I do as well. And it kind of is this idea of like you lead from the top, like how you behave as a PI is going to very much influence how the others behave. And so I too am a mother of two very small children, both under five at the moment.[laughs] And so I'm very open about, you know, "yup, gotta leave it's daycare pickup time. Wish I could stay past 4:30, but usually I can't." Um, "oh man, I'm really tired today. My brain's not working because so-and-so was sick" and you know, I just, I really do try and keep those lines of communication open. And again, just to echo what you said, Sarah, I share what I'm comfortable with and that usually kind of sets the tone of like, what are the kinds of personal things that we can talk about? And I do always try and keep everything kind of tied back to the lab. So I like to discuss things that are personal as they pertain to our work as a group, you know? Um, because there is, as you said, the line is fuzzy between professional and personal in these kinds of settings where it's more than a apprentice style relationship, as opposed to the strict pyramid hierarchy, it's kind of a shallow hierarchy. And so far I haven't had, you know, any issues where something has been like, [laughs] oh, we shouldn't really be talking about this, but I'm sure that that's bound to happen. That's just a matter of time. And I've only been at this for a year and a half, right? Um, but I definitely really liked the kind of motto of you lead from the top. You set the kind of expectations about, you know, what is acceptable conversation. But again, also definitely providing this safe space where people can come to you with things that might be outside of your wheelhouse, but that are for a reason, right? Because like they need to talk to somebody about this very big, important thing, and then finding the resources for them to get whatever it is that they need, that I might not be able to provide, um, in my capacity as their PI.

Raele Robison:

I completely agree that the tone needs to be set from the mentor's perspective. I will also say from a mentee perspective, that figure out in those people that are oversharing, perhaps where that's coming from. I had a situation where somebody, um, in a lab that I worked in one time was just kind of a... very much an oversharer at very inappropriate times. And so I ended up having a lunch with this individual just to kind of see what was going on. Um, and when I talked to this person, they were just saying about how they were in this new environment where they didn't have any family or friends around. And so I kind of had this light bulb moment, it was like, oh, we're her only friends here, you know, like, that's why she's telling us everything because she has no outlet or anything like that. And so, you know, we were able to have that conversation and talk about, like, you know, what you're doing in the context of these meetings is inappropriate, but if you need support in a friendship way, like we can, we can talk about that. We can get you plugged into different communities on campus or whatever it might be. And so there might be some clues in the types of things that people are oversharing as well. But I agree that the line is just very blurry at times.

Lauren Ullrich:

And for our last question, we wanted to talk about virtual mentoring or telementoring, which-- it has been happening for many years, but now with COVID, we're seeing a huge rise in people using Skype, or it's more acceptable to have a mentoring committee that includes people from all across the US or even internationally. And, are there any differences with that kind of relationship where you don't get to be in person often or maybe even at all? And how do you navigate those differences?

Theanne Griffith:

I can just say quickly that I started my lab kind of during the middle of the pandemic. And while UC Davis had restrictions on the number of people that could be in the lab, but because I was just starting and I only had like one or two people, I haven't really had to navigate virtual mentoring because I was able to have my folks in the lab. I can say that, you know, I've loved being on zoom and being able to kind of quickly meet with people in a way that I think we weren't doing pre pandemic, but I think it would be very challenging for me to effectively mentor for a long period of time virtually. I don't do very well with virtual engagement. It's really hard for me to stay engaged. I think a lot of those nuanced conversations, a lot of just the general team building and just the kind of small talk that can happen when you just pass through a lab and check on people and ask how their day is going, I think for me, that would be really challenging to maintain and I would be very nervous that my personality would kind of force me to be too business almost virtually. Since I didn't really have to navigate virtual mentoring, I'm definitely eager to hear what you guys have to say about how you have.

Raele Robison:

I come at this from a slightly different angle, I guess. And I think for me, um, at times my fatigue and my illness, whatever, is so bad that I can't even get out of bed.[laughs] I know everyone's kind of like sick of the pandemic and everything else, but this world of Zoom has just been like really accommodating for a lot of people that have these types of issues. And so, it was really challenging for me during my PhD program because again, even after I got sick, there's really not like a template when you have a disability and you're trying to navigate academia. That's why there's such a small percentage of people that have disabilities that are in academia because it's so very demanding. And even after I got sick, people were kind of like, "oh, that's great. You're better. Okay. Get back in the lab, like, let's get these projects done."[lauhgs] I'm like, " oh boy, like let's slow down a little bit." So it was still very challenging to me, because it's very fast paced and it's, you can't ever slow down. And so now having the opportunity to just click a button and having my mentor appear is just wonderful. Like we meet on a bi-weekly basis, and I would say like probably 90% of those meetings I do from bed. And she's totally like, okay, like, this is what you need from me right now. And so for me, I'm a little sad that some of these virtual opportunities are going away because it is a lot more challenging to navigate than when it's like such a big to do to even get out of bed sometimes. And I think for us too, maybe it's because our relationship did start in the middle of pandemic so this is what we're just used to now, but for us, we've been able to navigate it quite effectively. I think it's because we always start our meetings with just kind of 10 minutes of like, Hey, let's catch up. How are you doing? We kind of commiserate over the fact that like, oh yeah, you know, COVID still thing, you know, whatever. And ,then we move on. I actually have found it a little bit more effective just because I'm in a much better place being here, feeling energized and not having gone to campus and depleted a lot of my energy and things like that. Like here, I'm awake, I'm ready to go [laughs] and talk and chat and things like that. But this is a very extreme example. So I, I can also appreciate that it would be difficult if your student isn't, you know, suffering from these types of things that that's also a big ask to continue the virtual relationship, but it's a good option.

Theanne Griffith:

That's a good note for me. I'm going to try and remember at the beginning of meetings, I tend to just go straight to business. I'm just a fast paced person.[laughs] And I think it's really, it's a really good reminder. So thank you for that to just kind of slow down and check in, and that can help in these needed virtual spaces, um, to maintain that connection.

Sarah Kucenas:

Yeah, the virtual meetings were definitely challenging for me and my lab, especially because my lab has been up and running. So I had like six graduate students and two post-docs and all of a sudden we went from daily interactions in person, me like looking over the microscope to like Zoom, right? And so I think one of the helpful parts was that I had already established relationships with most of them ahead of time. And so it felt more comfortable going online because they knew who I was, which is not the same on Zoom. And what I did is I had to take more time, more space, right? Zoom was hard to talk, especially month two, month three, which seems so long ago, but when we thought this was going to end quickly or never end, [chuckle] right? Meaning that half an hour meetings were now 45 minutes or an hour, and me not cutting anybody off, just giving them again, the kind of the space, knowing that this was a new media, um, to be working through. Everybody loves being back and when we were allowed to come back, I though gave people the option. You could sit in the office with me. You can sit in the hall [laughs] right outside the office, or we can Zoom and a lot of students now, even if it's just because they're not morning people would rather Zoom from home with their coffee and then come to lab. And so I think that also adds this flexibility of, kind of respecting people's space and time, and they know how they best function. I prefer in person because I[laughs] just, my personality kind of like Theanne, right? Like just want to get into it and get excited. But knowing that the students and the trainees, trusting the scientists in my lab to make the best decision for themselves is I think what's really been helpful, but it was hard. And then it was hard swinging back after COVID because then everybody was afraid, right? So it's I guess the theme, just keeping that door open for what people feel comfortable with. And as a mentor, I adapt to each person and allow them to come in the space and in the time that they feel, you know, the most safe.[musical interlude].

Lauren Ullrich:

Thank you all for sharing your wisdom today. And can I ask each of you for one last piece of parting advice?

Raele Robison:

So I would say that it's important for mentees to learn that even though they are in this dynamic where somebody's kind of in this position of power over them and they're supposed to be learning from them that there are still opportunities for mentees to mentor up at times. And they're still things that your mentors are going to need guidance on, particularly when there are things that you are the authority on, which is your mental, emotional, physical wellbeing. And so while we often look to them to advocate for us, sometimes we need to advocate for ourself and just let them know really what we need from them and how they can be the best cheerleader for us. Um, so don't be afraid to, to mentor up because it's needed and that's how we keep growing and learning from each other.

Theanne Griffith:

I think my piece of advice would be, um, kind of to loop back around to Sarah's point of remembering that everyone in a mentee mentor relationship is human. And if mistakes are made, um, it's important that hopefully there's a certain base level of trust where feedback can be given and relationships evolve and grow, you know? And being able to understand that and understand that your mentee is human, the mentor's human, and it's all about growth and communication, I think can make for really positive, long-term mentor mentee relationships.

Sarah Kucenas:

And I'll kind of jump right off Theanne where you left off, which is this idea of evolution. I think it's really important that mentees realize that you can have more than one mentor [laughs] and your scientific mentor might be really good for area A, B, and C in your life. And then finding another mentor, whether it's someone who's also a faculty member or a postdoc or another grad student that these relationships can occur in many flavors and that they'll change over time. And that it's okay to tell your scientific mentor, for example, that you would like a change [laughs] and here's how you would like to evolve and to help them make that leap. And so kind of taking power, right? And, and being your best advocate, I think is the best way to get the ideal mentor relationship.

Lauren Ullrich:

And Marguerite what's your advice?

Marguerite Matthews:

I hear a lot of this is requiring risk-taking, right? Like you, the mentee have to be willing to take the risk that what you share with your mentor is going to be handled with care. Um, whether or not they fumbled the bag or they don't respond in the way that you want, that there has to be some risk there to say, okay, how did they respond? How do we get better? And also for the mentor to take a little bit of a risk to be willing to share a piece of themselves and also to make mistakes or to not get it right every single time. And I think we worry so much about, is this the right way or the wrong way and not is this a way that's going to help us grow and figure it out and adapt to each other's learning styles and work styles or whatever. And maybe I don't like, you know, having Zoom calls, but I'm, I'm willing to make, to make adjustments, and I do think a lot of that is risk-taking and sometimes we are risk averse as people, but that really is needed. And then you get into the swing of things where, okay, yeah, this actually does work and we can make it work. What about you, Lauren?

Lauren Ullrich:

Yeah. I mean, this has been such a great conversation. I think another theme that's really coming out is communication and how important that is to communicate your needs, um, to communicate what is working, what isn't working, um, and making sure that that foundation is really there. And that it's just, you're just going to have to work on it, right? It's not going to be a point where it's done and it's easy. It's --mentoring is a process that is going to have its ups and downs and, and that's ok.

Marguerite Matthews:

And you're always going to need a cheerleader, so [laughs] that will never die. Always need that.

Lauren Ullrich:

Amen.

Theanne Griffith:

Marguerite, you made me think of one thing when you were talking about mentors taking risks, and I think one thing that I've learned, and I've learned this as a mentee and I think it's solidified as a mentor, is that it is important for mentors to be vulnerable a little bit with their mentees. And I think that's really a great way to demonstrate trust. And I know the ability to be vulnerable; the ease of that is very different for different people. But I think finding your comfort level of vulnerability, um, and expressing that to the people in your lab is really beneficial in the long-term and kind of ties into that idea of risk-taking um, as a mentor.

Marguerite Matthews:

Definitely a two-way street, right. To have trust it has to go both ways.

Lauren Ullrich:

Yeah. There's actually a research on this about reciprocal sharing, that it is a way to build trust. So for all you scientists out there, if you're feeling skeptical, um, you can go to the peer reviewed literature and read more about it.[outro music] That's all we have time for today on Building Up the Nerve. And this season we're ending every episode with a reflection question. So this episode we invite you to reflect on, is there any support that you need from your mentors that you aren't receiving enough of and how can you get that support either from existing or new mentors? Thank you to our guests this week for sharing their expertise and thank you to NINDS program director, Dr. Bob Riddle, who composed our theme song and music. We'll see you next time for episode five, where we discuss transitioning out of a mentoring relationship.

Marguerite Matthews:

And you can find past episodes of this podcast and many more grant application resources on the web at NINDS dot NIH dot gov. Follow us on Twitter@NINDSDiversity and @NINDSFunding. You can email us with questions at NINDSNervePod@nih.gov. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast on apple podcasts or your favorite podcast app, so you don't miss an episode. We'll see you next time.