NINDS's Building Up the Nerve
Season 5 of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke’s Building Up the Nerve podcast helps you strengthen your science communication skills with tools and advice to use throughout your career. We know that navigating your career can be daunting, but we're here to help—it's our job!
NINDS's Building Up the Nerve
S3E5: Transitioning out of a mentoring relationship
The third Season of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke’s Building Up the Nerve podcast helps you strengthen your mentoring relationships with tools and advice from both trainees and faculty. We know that navigating your career can be daunting, but we're here to help—it's our job!
In the fifth episode of the season, we focus on transitioning out of a mentoring relationship. Even good mentoring relationships can run their course or become ineffective as time goes on. This episode is a conversation about navigating rough patches in mentoring relationships and knowing when and how to move on.
Featuring Ismail Ahmed, PhD, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, New York University School of Medicine; Imogen Hurley, PhD, Director, Office of Postdoctoral Studies, University of Wisconsin-Madison; and Sharon Mina Noh, PhD, Postdoctoral Scholar, University of California, Irvine.
Resources
- Sharon references her NSF award. That was the National Science Foundation (NSF) Graduate Research Fellowship Program: https://www.nsfgrfp.org/
- Imogen referenced that every university should have an Ombuds or Ombudsman Office. For example, the UW-Madison Ombuds office states “The Ombuds Office is a safe place where UW-Madison employees can seek guidance regarding workplace concerns at any time, without fear of reprisal, and at no cost to them. Ombuds provide faculty and staff with a confidential place to collaboratively explore complaints, clarify issues, and consider options and resources to address their concerns. Ombuds are impartial and non-aligned, working to promote fairness in the workplace.” - https://ombuds.wisc.edu/
Transcript available at http://ninds.buzzsprout.com/.
[intro music] Welcome to Season Three of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke's Building Up the Nerve, where we help you strengthen your mentoring relationships with tools and advice from both trainees and faculty. We know that navigating your career can be daunting, but we're here to help. It's our job.[music fades] I'm Lauren Ullrich, a program director at NINDS.
Marguerite Matthews:And I'm Marguerite Matthews, a program director at NINDS. And we're your hosts today.
Lauren Ullrich:This episode, we will focus on transitioning out of a mentoring relationship. Even good mentoring relationships can run their course or become ineffective as time goes on. Uh, so today we're going to have a conversation about navigating those rough patches in mentoring relationships and knowing when and how to move on.
Marguerite Matthews:[musical interlude] And our guests today are Dr. Ismail Ahmed, Dr. Imogen Hurley and Dr. Sharon Noh. So let's get started with introductions.
Ismail Ahmed:Hi, my name is Ismail Ahmed. I'm a post-doc at NYU Langone. I work in the lab of Dr. Robert Froemke. A little bit about my science, um, I'm a chemist by training, and I just happened to stumble into the field of neuroscience because I was very interested in how neuropeptides elicit behavior in the brain. And so I'm developing chemical tools so that, uh, we can track and control neuropeptides in real time and associate those with behaviors. Uh, if I were to describe my mentoring style in three words, it would probably be a coach, it would also be freedom, and creativity. Those are all things that I really like for myself, and this is how I actually mentor my undergraduates and, uh, volunteers in the lab.
Marguerite Matthews:I love that freedom is one of the words. That's really powerful.
Ismail Ahmed:Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the only way I do science or else I get bored and then I can't do it. And then I would have to move on to something else.
Imogen Hurley:So my name is Imogen Hurley. I am the Director of the Office of Post-doctoral Studies at the University of Wisconsin, Madison and our office, like other postdoc offices across the nation, um, our mission is to enhance the postdoctoral training experience on our campus. And, we and other offices like ours that are really dealing with two issues. One is that postdocs are often an invisible population on university campuses. So we do our best to raise the profile of postdocs, to advocate for them, to make sure they get information, et cetera. And then a second issue we deal with is, um, the post-doctoral training experience should be a training experience. And so our office works to make sure that our post-docs are receiving career and skills development that will help them effectively transition from what should be a short-term position as a postdoc into their professional careers. In terms of three words to describe my mentoring style or philosophy, I want to say communication, communication, communication should be emphasized.[laughs] Um, but if I had to pick three, I would say communication, honesty, so honesty both in the mentor recognizing their shortcomings and also honesty in terms of feedback to the mentee, and then empathy would be my third one because I don't think you can be an effective mentor unless you have empathy for that mentee and truly understanding what they need.
Sharon Noh:Hi, my name is Sharon Noh. I'm a post-doc at Aaron Bornstein's lab at the University of California, Irvine. Uh, broadly my interests lie in identifying and understanding the conditions that improve long-term learning and decision-making across the lifespan. So I'm working on various projects investigating how memory processes influence planning and decision-making in older and younger adults. And I do that using fMRI and also computational modeling techniques. Um, in terms of the three words that describe my mentoring style, or that's been really applicable to me, uh, communication was a big one, but also flexibility, and resilience, I would say.
Lauren Ullrich:We're just getting so many good words this season.
Marguerite Matthews:Yeah. Maybe we'll have a word cloud
Lauren Ullrich:Ooo, yeah
Marguerite Matthews:with communication[laughs] as the big word in the middle.
Lauren Ullrich:Yeah, for real.[musical interlude] So this, [exhales] this first one's kind of a doozy. How would you characterize your relationship with mentors that you've worked with in the past? Do you still consider them active mentors and have you worked to keep the relationship going with every single one of your mentors or, um, has it sort of been a case by case scenario?
Ismail Ahmed:For the most part, um, at every stage, I had a different mentor, um, when it was in undergrad all the way now through postdoctoral fellowship. And, the primary mentor was always the supervisor who I was doing research under and each one of them had very different styles. And I felt like every mentoring style has its pros and cons. So let me just talk a little bit about my graduate mentor, um, who I believe had my best interest at heart all the time. But he had very highly communicated expectations. And it was like really measured in the input/ output system. You put this many hours in, this is what you're going to get. And him being on top of me probably made me very productive, but it also led to a little bit of, of burnout. And so, while I was very productive in graduate school, having over seven papers and getting awards and fellowships, at the end, I needed to take a very long break between graduate school and post-doc because I felt I needed that break. Now I'm in the post-doc stage and it's more of a, if you will, a creative collaboration where there is not that much oversight, but we sit there and we talk about ideas. And when things are starting to come together as a paper or for grants, we have these really fruitful conversations that shape whatever I'm going to do next. And so I found that that was my sweet spot. But in the end I did learn that well, that lack of oversight, what would have taken me maybe less time, uh, under the previous form of mentorship, it drags out in this other form that yes, mentally I feel better, but in regards to like being productive and producing product, um, it's less optimal. In the end, we have to weigh, you know, what is more important for us, our mental health, [laughs] or, you know, publish or perish, if you will. Um, and I just wanted to say one last thing about this, but my best mentors are not even the researchers that have oversight over my projects. It's actually, um, peer mentors or mentors who have just succeeded me by a few years, because they've just went through the same journey that I'm trying to go through and they're able to give me a very detailed account of the things that they had to do to become successful. So I try to learn from their mistakes, but also learn from the things that worked for them.
Marguerite Matthews:And can I ask how your level of productivity has impacted the relationship that you've had with your mentors, whether you felt burnout or maybe you were emotionally well, like, do you think that impacted how you interacted with them or what you were getting from them? Were you able to ask, like, I need more of this or I need less of this?
Ismail Ahmed:So I think if I had a different personality, it could have impacted that, but I'm very, uh, outgoing and I'll ask for whatever it is that I need, even if I'm going to get rejected or not. But I would say that the overwhelming response that I've gotten through my training has been positive. And, you know, sometimes there was tough love and maybe I needed that at the time. But I think that with every stage, I think that those things were in place for a reason. And now, um, this post-doc stage where I have a lot of freedom is actually preparing me for the next stage when I run my own lab. So I have to be very self-driven. I have to dig deep within myself to get things done, or at least be more mindful of time management. You know, I'm not going to have my postdoc advisor on my back when I have my own lab. This is part of like this whole story of transitioning out of mentorship. And I think that that's a key, um, thing that I'm happy that I chose to do a postdoc with someone who is literally the stark opposite of my graduate mentor. And I think that that has really helped.
Imogen Hurley:As you were describing those two different styles, I was thinking how fortunate it is that they came in that order, because I think as you grow in your training career, you've been given it in the right direction to have less hands-on as you've grown in your development.
Ismail Ahmed:I totally agree. It was by design honestly.
Imogen Hurley:Yeah.
Ismail Ahmed:I was like, I cannot do this again. And if I did, I would be too dependent.
Imogen Hurley:Yeah. It'd be a disservice to you.
Ismail Ahmed:Yeah.
Lauren Ullrich:What about you, Sharon? Did you want to chime in on this question?
Sharon Noh:Sure. So I've actually worked with a lot of different mentors. So before starting grad school, I was working in three different labs and that's because I didn't realize I wanted to get into research until fairly late in the game. So then by the time I realized, I kind of took a shotgun approach of like, oh, what research would I want to do? And so, I had a diverse set of mentors in that regard. I was working for an assistant professor and then also two very senior professors, and like the two senior professors were also very different. One was very, very hands-on, um, and the other was very hands off. You know, I didn't plan for it to be this way, but it actually ended up working out really well because it helped me figure out what type of mentor I was looking for in grad school. And so, uh, when I was interviewing it really helped me decide which lab to ultimately go into for grad school. Um, and then, once I started grad school, I worked for a professor, he, he's very, very successful at what he did, um, but he was [laughs] very, very, hands-on almost like very micromanagy, um, you know, the kind of like 50 emails a day kind of relationship. And I think this is where, like the flexibility thing came in. Um, because I generally didn't have too much trouble, like, adapting to different people's styles, as long as I was able to kind of communicate with them, like, oh, this is something that I can do, or here's what I have so far, and just kind of updating people all along the way. Um, and when that relationship ended, like neither of us chose for that to happen, but, um, he left the university and, then I had to switch again and the mentor I got my dissertation with was kind of a nice balance, like very high expectations, but also not too micromanagy, um, like knew what it took to become successful in the field. And so I think I benefited a lot there. And she's also a very successful scientist. And then when I was looking for postdoc mentors, I again kind of reevaluated what I needed at my career stage. And I knew that I was a little short on publications and so I wanted someone who might prioritize getting papers out as much as I needed them. And so I chose to work for an assistant professor, a newer professor who I figured we would be on like the same publication timeline, you know, like, he would need papers for tenure, I need papers [laughs] for my CV. In some ways, I feel like it's kind of the perfect balance because he's there as much as you need him. And so when I'm like, "Hey, I need more guidance on this," then he can be more available, um, but he'll also give me the room to do what I want or need to do as well. So yeah, I've been fortunate enough to sort of have a diverse experience in terms of mentors. And I honestly keep in touch with all my mentors from all stages, including the one that left the university. So I think that's been pretty beneficial to me and I think that I've found that it was very helpful for me as well.
Marguerite Matthews:While you keep in touch, do you find yourself leaning on them? Are they people that you go back to for advice or is it more in a courteous kind of, I just want to check in with you, tell you how things are going, give you an update on, you know, career stuff. What does that actually look like after you've sort of formally moved away from those mentors?
Sharon Noh:Uh, so I would say, there's both. So there are people who I, you know, will say, Hey, I have this like interesting finding and I wanted to see your thoughts on it, and so it's more research based. And there are other people who, um, I'll just check in with and give them life updates. You know, I just had a kid, and so I'll like, let them know about that and see how they're doing and things like that.
Ismail Ahmed:I wanted to say something about that as well, like I mean, obviously the graduate mentor is really important because we need that to get to the next level, you need their letters for grants you need their letters for, um, when you're applying for faculty positions. So I say, you know, don't burn bridges, but you know, just keep it going. You never know. Like, for example, I'm going back to my undergrad institution in like two weeks, three weeks to give a talk, and I haven't really talked to my undergraduate mentor in a very long time, but we connected and we're going to meet up and it's going to be nice.
Marguerite Matthews:Awesome.
Imogen Hurley:I couldn't agree more with that. I mean, there's the obvious, um, you're going to need reference letters, they can provide you with feedback on your work, et cetera, but there's also the unknown. So I've had mentors in the past who I didn't realize that 10 years later I was going to need their help, um, because our paths crossed again and we're now doing collaborations and things like that. So I think being on good terms with your previous mentor, if it's possible, I think is ideal and uh, ways to do that, that have already been discussed can be professional. So, checking in on them, asking about how things are progressing with the lab since you left, congratulating them on publications that have come out, um, sharing maybe other papers you've seen that might be relevant to their work. And being very willing to help if they ever reach out to you. So I've had previous mentors say, would you mind taking a look at this paper, give me some feedback. And I jump on that cause that's finally a way for me to give back to them and just keep that relationship solid. And then if it feels natural to you, as Sharon said, the personal side, so marriages, births, that kind of thing, Christmas cards, if that's your medium or, um, we're lucky to be able to use social media so easily. So even just commenting on their posts on Twitter or connecting on LinkedIn, that type of thing. I think there's lots of really different ways and using the way that as I said, feels natural to you. One way, I've done a lot for the informal mentoring relationships I now have with people, um, is if I'm going to be at the same conference as them just saying, let's get breakfast, let's get coffee. And then I just ask them, how's it going? Or maybe I have something I want advice on, I'll bring that with me, but trying to give back to them as well as taking from them.
Lauren Ullrich:Yeah. So let's say you leave a mentoring relationship and you're not able to stay on good terms with someone. And I could see a trainee being hesitant to leave, actually, because they feel like they need to rely on this person for a letter in the future or things like that. So how do you recommend trainees navigate that situation where they feel it's not working? I have to leave, then what do they do? How do they deal with that lack of a letter?
Imogen Hurley:I would say if it's really bad, so you know, that letter is just not going to happen. Ideally, if you can form a relationship with someone else who is in close proximity to that mentor. So for example, if it's a very toxic relationship and it goes very poorly with your faculty mentor, perhaps the chair of the department, or, um, someone even higher up in the Dean's office of your school or college might be able to provide a letter that explains the circumstances of what happened with that situation. Otherwise, going backwards in your career. So, um, I'm aware of a case of a postdoc who went on the faculty job market. They didn't have a good relationship with their postdoc mentor and what they relied on was their PhD mentor providing letters, collaborators providing letters, and other faculty who they'd worked with at that post-doc stage to be able to give some perspective on what had happened there and why that letter was going to be missing from their packet. And they were successful in their job hunt. So it is possible to do that. And I think all the letter readers know that sometimes that happens. I think all of us know unfortunately of a mentoring situation that hasn't gone well. So people know that's unfortunately, part of academic culture, um, and so if you prepare in that way, by building those other relationships and asking for that help for those other letters, I think it is possible.
Marguerite Matthews:Yeah, I think it's really great to underscore the idea that it doesn't have to be just on the trainee to have to explain perhaps a really difficult time. That they can share the burden with other people who, as you said, Imogen, can give context, can also show like this person is really doing a great job. And while it's unfortunate, they had to switch labs or move schools or whatever, um, you know, they're still worthy of being invested in, um, and I think for trainees, oftentimes there's a worry or a fear to be able to ask for that help in that way. Um, they feel like they have to be the ones to explain it or ignore it altogether, which is not really helpful either because we can see that there's a change um, so it should be addressed, but in a way that does kind of give you some relief that it doesn't just have to be the trainee having to sort of shoulder all of that negativity. So thanks for mentioning that.
Ismail Ahmed:I wanted to piggyback on that cause um, Imogen spoke really well about, especially about the post-doc stage, but let's take a step back for people who are at the graduate stage where you might have to switch labs. So I had to switch labs. I chose one dissertation lab and it wasn't working out, and it was clear that it was time to find, you know, greener pastures. And so I did, and it turned out really well, and that was history. It doesn't even come up anymore. So I feel like it's, um, important to self-reflect and say, am I willing to put myself through this uncomfortable situation for whatever amount of time that's left, or even if it takes me a bit longer, it's better to cut my losses and be in a better situation. And I think that that is a big step towards independent thinking where you decide for yourself that this is what I need to do for me. And it will yield better results. In the end, that previous mentor didn't think that I was valuable for their future and their, I guess, their tenure package or whatever. But, Hey, I did really well and superseded their expectations.
Marguerite Matthews:Yeah, there's nothing like a good revenge story though. Let's be honest, [laughter] you know, it's like, oh, I'm doing great. Thanks for telling me that I needed to move on so that someone else got a chance to have my talents and all the wonder that I bring.
Sharon Noh:Yeah. I guess I had a slightly different experience in grad school, where I did have a very, very rocky period with my advisor at the time. This was before we had to part ways for circumstances outside of our control. But before that, you know, I started off very lucky is all I could say about it. Like I had a couple ideas for studies and they immediately worked and they were publication ready. And so I was extremely productive, like, my first semester of grad school, it was very unusual. I was ahead of most people in my cohort, but then, you know, I think it all balances out because then I had a series of studies after that, that all just failed. And I was doing analysis after analysis. And it's one of those things where it's like, if your planned analyses don't turn out where you're like, we predicted these things and they're all, null, then it requires more work and effort to try to find something that does work. And it just ends up being very messy. And so I was trying to find something in, you know, like new ways to look at the data. What can I analyze? What haven't I thought of? And one thing after another, it just wasn't working out. And because I started off with so many results, I think for my mentor, it kind of looked like, oh, she's slacking now. That's why there's nothing to show for her work. And I remember at one point I was saying, I tried so many things and they're failing and he's just like,"well, keep looking" or "clearly you're not trying hard enough" was kind of the message I felt I was getting. And so I remember, I felt like it was a waste of time, but I spent so much time documenting every analysis I tried. Showing the graphs and the results and saying like this doesn't work, then I tried this. And that document ended up being like 80 pages long. Um, but it was just to show you, like, I'm not just sitting around doing nothing, I'm doing a lot of things that aren't working out. And so we need to either move on or I might need your input here. But, at some point there, [laughs] I got sort of like a threatening letter from the mentor, kind of implying that I wasn't meeting expectations. And if I continued to not meet expectations, I would essentially lose my NSF. And that really scared me because it was like on official university letterhead. And so I freaked out, I printed that letter. I printed out like my 80 page document. I kind of started building a case. And then I took it to like the grad student representative at our university. And I said, one, can he do this? And two, like, if you just went off this letter, it seems like I'm doing nothing, but here's all the stuff I've been doing. And so I was really glad that I had this document and like the email record of having sent this document to show like, I'm not just slacking here. And, um, there was like a professor who was in charge of grad student related affairs. He happened to be a clinical psychologist as well. And he was really, really helpful in coaching me through this situation. He was saying like, you know, as a grad student, unfortunately, you don't have a lot of power here. And so if you go up against a professor you have to approach it more like guerrilla warfare, because there's no way you could win, like, head to head. They have a reputation, they have way more power and you have way more to lose, essentially. And so he would really coach me on, okay, so like what if you presented this? Or like, he was kind of talking me through how to like, have meetings with this professor to try to smooth things over. And I thought that that was very, very helpful. And, you know, through that it took a while, but the professor finally understood and it was really important, I think, for me to figure that situation out. And I, I think I could have also switched labs, but this was also a professor who maybe would not have taken that very well either. And I think that that's also something you have to be very careful of. Professors in general have colleagues, have friends all in the area that you want to work in. And like, if they get upset and bad mouth you to someone else, then that could really hurt your career. And so I think in hindsight it was really good that I worked through it the way I did with the help of the university. Um, I know that that's more of an extreme case and not everyone can do that. And I also know not everyone needs to do that. Some people are totally okay with switching labs. Um, the lab I ended up in had some students who didn't work out and they were on great terms the whole time and it was a non-issue, right? And so it could be very specific to your mentor. And I think you would be the best judge of what avenue might be the most effective for you.
Marguerite Matthews:I'd just like to take a minute to say that's really unfortunate that academia is set up in a way that you feel like the burden is on you to prove the work that you've done. So I'm sorry, and also congratulations for being the resilient person you are and persevering in spite of not having, I mean, to me, it seems more like we shouldn't allow this to happen instead of you having to find loopholes and how to figure out how to manage that situation. That's really, uh, quite terrible, [laughs] um, so thank you for sharing that. And honestly, it's not really extreme. I've heard many stories like that. But I would love if you or anyone else wants to talk a little bit more about, are there clues to help you recognize that a mentoring relationship is fixable or one that you think is worth fixing or maybe some signs that really, it is time to go your separate ways, um, if that's the case.
Imogen Hurley:I think in order to answer that question, whether it's fixable or whether you'd be better off leaving it, you obviously need to understand the root of the problem
Marguerite Matthews:Mmm
Imogen Hurley:in that relationship. And if you're able to, having a very frank, but not confrontational - and it's hard to get that balance - but a frank conversation with a mentor and, and saying, clearly there's an issue here. Um, please tell me what I could be doing differently to better meet your expectations so that you can hear what it is they expect of you, and make that assessment. And I think it's great what Sharon did to seek help outside of that relationship, um, from a trusted source. And I would argue it's a positive thing. It's bad she had to do that, but it's great that there was that support available to her.
Marguerite Matthews:Absolutely.
Imogen Hurley:She had an advocate there close within the university. So getting that outside perspective, and if they reinforced the way you're feeling, then that can help you make that decision. Is it worth pursuing it or is it worth, um, transitioning out of that relationship. And I think what I've seen is a lot of trainees stay in that relationship too long, they really should have moved on. And it, it would have been better if they had left earlier. So it was more of a blip in their career, if they'd moved sooner, rather than holding on or um, ignoring the problem and thinking it was going to resolve itself or not wanting to deal with it so that it drags on longer than it, than it needs to. And in terms of resources to help with that, many institutions have an ombuds office. And I mention that because it's normally completely confidential, um, going to speak to the ombuds and getting their advice. They're normally staffed by individuals who are very experienced in the university and who have no skin in the game. They don't have a conflict of interest. Whereas you've already mentioned, other professors in the same department may collaborate with your mentor. There may be a little bit of conflict there. So going to an office like an ombuds office in the university, they can give you unbiased advice and talk through the different paths you could take, whether it's staying and trying to make it a better relationship or whether it is leaving and how to do that effectively. I speak to trainees who've assumed that talking to offices, like human resources offices, that it will be confidential. You don't know that unless you ask. Normally like an ombuds office is confidential, but before you seek advice, I would always advise checking, would this conversation remain confidential or not so that you know what the ramifications are going to be of your sharing, um, and asking for advice.
Sharon Noh:And just to add to that, I think in my case, one of the motivations to actually go to someone in the department was that I knew this was an ongoing issue with my advisor in the lab because other people in the lab have all gone through this. They said, oh, we, we all have that bad year, where he's just really hard on you. But when I showed the representatives in the department, you know, like, oh, he's just trying to scare you. Like, he wouldn't actually take away your NSF, because that would look as bad for him as it would for you. And I basically said, right, but that's--that's why it's abusive, right? Like that's why this is not okay to write or say to a student as a scare tactic. And that was really what I wanted to let them know. Um, Because no one in our lab ever mentioned this to anyone else. And so I was saying like on paper, I know I'm a good candidate and I know I'm trying my best and I know that I'm not this terrible student that is reflected in this letter. So part of me just wanted to set this record so that if some other student down the line who maybe has more insecurity issues, or is really internalizing this feedback, uh, came along, they would know that this wasn't like the first time and that they would know maybe not to take it as personally. And so, um, I remember that actually being a big motivation for me. And I remember telling them, like, I know objectively I'm okay because I have a publication under my belt. I have a very prestigious award. And I know that won't always be the case for someone who, like, falls into this situation. I mean, I guess it didn't really end up mattering [laughs] because he left the university but, you know, I think I would encourage people to do that in general. Like if you are struggling, I do think it does make a big difference, because these offices will have these records and they'll be able to pick up patterns that you may not know. Like, oh, this person does have a pattern of being really hard on their students or whatever.
Ismail Ahmed:I think it's a real big disservice to academia that there's not enough invested in, uh, people learning conflict resolution. Both ways, it doesn't have to just be from the mentors. But from the mentee side, because the mentee is going to become independent one day, anyways. So learning how to resolve conflicts and deescalate things before they get to a point where you have to like, remove yourself from that situation. I think that the same way, um, the education system is failing students in terms of learning about finances early and whatnot. This is something that probably should be taught way early on, even at like the middle school, high school level. You know, how to deescalate a situation, how to use the rules of like fair fighting, for example, um, to come to common ground. Because no one trains anyone to be a manager. Essentially you become a manager and you literally have to manage people's expectations, people's ups and downs, and if you don't know how to do that, you probably will make mistakes along the way that will hurt the other person without you knowing. And so this is something that it's important to be cognizant about, you know, moving forward.
Marguerite Matthews:And everyone can benefit from conflict management, whether you manage people or not, you still have to manage yourself. You have to interact with other people in your life. You know, whether they're people that you live with, whether they're people that you work with. And I think yeah, you're right, um, some of those pivotal opportunities to learn about this are just, are not taught to us at any level until like you went off on somebody in lab meeting, and then you're like, oh yeah, actually that might've really been helpful for me not to just blow a fuse because I didn't know how to express myself or defend myself or to find out like, Hey, what is the problem? And I love that Imogen said, like, managing expectations work really well. And sometimes if you know, you can't meet the expectation or you don't want to meet the expectation in the way that it's presented that that is a great opportunity to say, you know what? This is really not going to work out. I think it's better that I find somewhere that is going to work optimally for me. And those situations may change, right? Like throughout the season, we talk about why someone may need to have, um, new accommodations, whether it's for, you know, they're a new parent or they just have, you know, been diagnosed with a new disease that has now changed the way they live, the way they learn, the way they work. Or, I dunno a global pandemic [chuckle] maybe you know, shut you inside your house and now you have to find new ways to both communicate, to get work done, all these other things. And, um, sometimes those dynamics will shift. I do think that there's so many opportunities where we're not getting new resources and new opportunities to learn how to be better people and be better communicators and advocating for what it is that we want, but also expecting that you're going to have someone who has your best interests at heart, who is operating on the other end, you know, to make sure that you all are aligned in expectations. And if it's not the case, there's an amicable split, like, Hey, yep, I can't meet your expectations. You can't meet mine. Like I think maybe it's best that we go our separate ways.
Lauren Ullrich:Thank you all for sharing your wisdom today. Can I ask each of you for one last piece of parting advice for our audience?
Sharon Noh:I think my advice would just be to really be honest with yourself, um, and also try to be not only self-aware, but try to understand the mentor better as well, because I think that will really help you decide whether or not you can continue with the relationship. You know, there are times when people just fundamentally can't see eye to eye, in which case I do think that it is the best approach to seek a new mentor, but there are a lot of times when it's just like, if it's a matter of being able to understand one another better, you know, I think that's where the communication comes in kind of sitting down, being very open and honest about what your needs are, and also being very receptive to like what they want from you as well. Because if there are things that you can do to better accommodate them, I think trying to keep a good relationship is ultimately ideal, because again, you know, if you're staying in academia, these are people you're going to be encountering, you're going to really benefit from their network and their friends and things like that as well. So I think trying to end things positively is very important, even if that means like leaving their lab. Um, I can't stress how important it is to not burn bridges. And so I guess that would be my advice.
Imogen Hurley:Building on that, I would say for a lot of people, that process of transitioning when it has to be earlier than you were expecting can often come with grief, you know, for that transition. You know, you had a planned future and it's going to be different now. So anticipating that and having a support system around you, of friends and peers to help you through that process. And I also speak to a lot of trainees who have a lot of guilt about it too. So perhaps anticipating that feeling, but I would encourage, um, everyone to really prioritize what they need in their lives and to try and shake that guilt off. That this happens sometimes. This is a part of our mentoring culture. And sometimes you, you need to do what's right for yourself and for your career and not feel guilty about that. It's okay to do that.
Ismail Ahmed:So a lot of what we talked about is about severing relationships, um, when they need to be. But I think one parting advice that I want to give is have a deep conversation within yourself about who it is that you want to be both in terms of a mentor and as a scientist, like what type of science do you want to do and what type of culture you want to cultivate in your own lab. And then along the way you pick out the things that you really like from all the mentors that you have and learn the science that you can learn from those mentors so that you can build your program, um, because you are starting your own lab if you're going to stay in academia. And you have the ability to build your own culture. And that is probably an amalgamation of everything you learned, um, along the path. And so for me, for example, I'm a chemist. I don't know anything about neuroscience, um, relative to most of my peers, but what I can say is that when I'm making a chemical biology paper for neuroscience, my postdoc advisor treats me like the expert in that area. And when it comes to neuroscience, he's the expert in that area. We bring our expertise together to build a beautiful story. And so that goes back to really thinking about what it is that I want to do and how I want to do it and leaving behind the things that does not work for me and starting a new chapter.
Imogen Hurley:If I may, I'd like to give another piece of advice.
Lauren Ullrich:Sure!
Marguerite Matthews:Go for it!
Imogen Hurley:So building on Ismail's more positive outlook. Everyone should be continually looking for mentors. Those informal mentorships I think can be as positively impactful on your life as the formal ones. And thinking beyond just the science mentor to people who will be your political mentor, who will be your advocate, who will be your skills mentor, who will be your emotional mentor. So thinking of an entire map of different mentors. And so all of us throughout our careers, I think, should be searching for those people to, to fill those needs in our professional careers.
Ismail Ahmed:I just want to say one more thing. Twitter is so good for developing a new network of mentors. Through the pandemic, I connected with mentors that I didn't even know that I would be able to do. And just shoot your shot. If you like somebody and what they're doing, reach out and talk with them and get to know them, and trust me more people are willing to be mentors than you think, and then you pay it back by mentoring the next generation. I do that all the time with the graduate students in my lab or in other programs or even other postdocs and it's a, an ecosystem of mentorship that we all have to participate in, pay it forward.
Marguerite Matthews:Absolutely.
Lauren Ullrich:Sharon, do you have a second piece of advice that [laughs] you want to give?
Sharon Noh:Sure. I mean, this is something that I'll often mention to applicants who want to interview for our lab. I actually think there's a huge benefit to working with different types of mentors. And so, you know, especially in academia, people typically work with two different mentors, like for grad school and then as a post-doc. And I found it was really helpful to work with someone who was early career and then also someone who was more, um, mid to late career because you get very different perspectives on how to run a lab. So with a newer lab, it's almost like working for a startup. It's like, you really learn how to build a lab from the ground up. And I think that's really important, uh, knowledge for when you start your own lab. And then also, being able to work for someone who is more senior, you get a lot of their like expertise and kind of big picture way of thinking. And, you know, you'll get a lot more insight on, like, at that career stage, you know, they're very successful in getting grants and things like that and so you have a lot of knowledge to benefit from there as well uh, for when you eventually become a professor. So I felt that it was extremely helpful to get both of those perspectives. So that's something that I'll encourage people to do if possible.
Lauren Ullrich:Yeah. That's a great point. Marguerite, what's your advice?
Marguerite Matthews:Okay. So I'm going to follow the lead of our guests and I'm going to give two pieces of advice.
Lauren Ullrich:Oh my gosh. Does that mean I have to think of two?[laughs] I only have one.
Marguerite Matthews:No, I mean, you know, you can be a rebel. Lauren, [laughter] you don't have to follow the crowd. I'm a follower. Okay. I am not a leader.
Lauren Ullrich:That's definitely not true.[laughter]
Marguerite Matthews:My first piece of advice is just because you're transitioning to the next phase of your career doesn't mean you have to abandon or sever ties with your mentors. I think, you know, the words have been used before, flexible, adaptable, communication. And things just change, and I think it's a really great way to think of transitioning is also maybe transitioning the type of relationship you have with mentors. And these can be really meaningful, especially if they're people that you respect, that respect you, um, finding a way to make the relationship work even if it's not in a formal mentoring capacity but still someone to share, um, information with. Um, and I think that leads me to my second piece of advice is something that Imogen said earlier about you as a mentee, actually have something to offer your mentors, that you are now an expert. Like, you have grown in a way that you actually have something to share. And I say, just rest in the power of what you've learned from your former mentors. And feel powerful in the ability to help them and give back to them in a way. Whether it's reading a grant, um, helping them maybe put together a scientific talk at a conference, really knowing that just because they are more senior to you, perhaps, that does not mean that they are not your colleague, they aren't someone that can benefit from all that they have poured into you and all the new things that you will have learned in the next phase or that you learned when you were with them, that you didn't necessarily get from them that you got from your online community, or you got from meeting other mentors at conferences. So yeah, knowing that while you transition careers, your mentoring relationships may also transition, but that you have something really important to offer other people both in a mentoring capacity, but also just in a scientific expert capacity. What about you, Lauren? What are your one or two pieces of advice?[ chuckle]
Lauren Ullrich:My one piece of advice, I want to build on something that Ismail was saying, which is more for like the mentors that are listening to this, which is that, you know, the things that we've been discussing this episode are really like, these are the realities that trainees are navigating every day, right? These power dynamics, thinking about, um, their place in the field and their mentors influence that they're going to have for maybe 30 years later, right? on their career. And that non-ideal relationships are more common than,[laughs] than you might think. And so, really taking a hard look at not only your lab, but even like your program and your institution. And are there things that you can change about the system to make it easier for trainees to deal with these kinds of situations? Do you require a recommendation letter from the previous supervisor in order for a student to either join your graduate program or become a post-doc in your lab? And what does that mean for trainees who didn't have a great relationship with their advisor? Right? Like really thinking about those questions and also what kind of support is available for students who are trying to navigate even just, maybe not a toxic situation, but just a difficult situation. And they haven't had the tools that we talked about in terms of conflict resolution. So, that would be my advice is more on the mentor side and thinking systemically about this. And that is also what we're going to be talking about in episode seven, which is going to be all about the systemic issues around mentoring.[outro music] That's all we have time for today on Building Up The Nerve. And this season, we are ending every episode with a reflection question. So this episode we invite you to reflect on, are there any mentoring relationships in your life that aren't serving you well? And can you do something to adjust them or is it time to move on? Thank you to our guests this week for sharing their expertise. And thank you to NINDS program director, Dr. Bob Riddle, who composed our theme song and music. We'll see you next time for episode six, where we discuss becoming a mentor.
Marguerite Matthews:You can find past episodes of this podcast and many more grant application resources on the web at ninds.nih.gov. Be sure to follow us on Twitter@NINDSDiversity and @NINDSFunding. You can email us your questions at NINDSNervePod@nih.gov. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast on Apple podcasts or your favorite podcast app so you don't miss an episode. We'll see you next time.