NINDS's Building Up the Nerve

S3E6: Becoming a mentor

• NINDS • Season 3 • Episode 6

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The third Season of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke’s Building Up the Nerve podcast helps you strengthen your mentoring relationships with tools and advice from both trainees and faculty. We know that navigating your career can be daunting, but we're here to help—it's our job!

In the sixth episode of the season, we focus on moving from mentee to mentor, developing your mentoring philosophy, co-mentoring, and culturally aware mentorship.

Featuring Ruben Dagda, PhD - Associate Professor, University of Nevada, Reno; Kathryn Graves - Psychology PhD Candidate, Yale University; and Jasmine Quynh Le - Neuroscience PhD Candidate, Brandeis University.

 

Resources

Transcript available at http://ninds.buzzsprout.com/.

Lauren Ullrich:

[intro music] Welcome to Season Three of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke's Building Up The Nerve where we help you strengthen your mentoring relationships with tools and advice from both trainees and faculty. We know that navigating your career can be daunting, but we're here to help. It's our job.[music fades]

Marguerite Matthews:

Hello, I'm Marguerite Matthews, a program director at NINDS.

Lauren Ullrich:

And I'm Lauren Ullrich, also a program director at NINDS. And we're your hosts today.

Marguerite Matthews:

This episode, we will focus on moving from being a mentee, to being a mentor, developing your mentoring philosophy, co-mentoring, and culturally aware mentorship.[musical interlude]

Lauren Ullrich:

Our guests today are Dr. Ruben Dagda, Kathryn Graves, and Jasmine Quynh Le. So let's get started with our introductions.

Ruben Dagda:

Hi. Yes, I'm so grateful to be here. My name is Dr. Ruben Dagda and I'm an associate professor. I'm at the University of Nevada Reno, Department of Pharmacology. Right now, um, I'm currently investigating, uh, the molecular mechanisms by which neurons in the midbrain, which are affected by Parkinson's disease, degenerate, uh, specifically I'm looking at how mitochondria, the organelles that generate ATP and energy are dysfunctional during Parkinson's models and what we can do to ameliorate and reverse, uh, the loss of energy and mitochondrial dysfunction. So another angle of my research is looking at the therapeutic translational aspects to reverse, uh, Parkinson's pathology using animal models. And also I'm doing a little bit of research into Alzheimer's disease, trying to break into that field as well, because a lot of the pathologies common between the two diseases, uh, including mitochondrial dysfunction. And three words that describe my mentoring philosophy style. I was thinking about this very hard, and it is flexibility, customize, and open minded.

Kathryn Graves:

Hi, thank you so much for having me. My name is Kathryn Graves. I do go by Kat and I'm currently a fourth year graduate student in the Psychology Department here at Yale University. And largely I'm interested in the ways in which people, human learners learn and extract structure from their environments as they navigate so as we move around space, um, and also the neural mechanisms that support these processes. So in other words, uh, I basically have people run around both in virtual environments and actually in the real world as well, while we record from their brains and also observe their behavior. More specifically using a combination of behavioral, computational, and intracranial EEG, uh, to investigate this sort of complex capacity or ability that is, uh, human navigation. And three words to describe my mentoring style, I would say "challenge by choice," and so I think I really encourage my mentees to, um, push themselves to learn new things, but also know that I'm always there for support.

Jasmine Quynh Le:

Hello. Thank you so much for having me. My name is Jasmine Quynh Le. I'm a fifth year PhD candidate in Neuroscience at Brandeis University, and I am interested in circadian rhythms and sleep, which are conserved in almost all animals. And my work is centered around studying the interactions between these two processes. Using the humble fruit fly as a model organism, I am looking at how circadian neurons, wake neurons, and sleep neurons change how they communicate with each other in moments of increased sleep pressure. In other words, I'm asking how do our brains override our circadian tendency to wake up in the morning after a night of staying up. And so I'm doing this by looking at messenger RNAs and how they change with increasing pressure and what happens when they artificially manipulate expression levels of these molecules at a neuron- specific level. And, um, I think similarly to everyone else here, three words that describe my mentoring style are honesty, kindness, and evolving.[musical interlude]

Marguerite Matthews:

All right. So let's get started on our questions. Can you all tell us how you developed your mentoring philosophy? It can be formal or informal. Did you write it down? Um, just let us know, like, how you came up with it and how do you communicate it to your mentees?

Ruben Dagda:

I must confess that I did not think about my mentoring philosophy when I started mentoring graduate students at the University of Iowa. I think, um, my colleagues here can relate to this, it's based on emulating your, uh, bad and good experiences. And I was in charge of, uh, doing peer to peer mentoring, uh, rotating with graduate students. And no one really taught me. And, uh, it was more like, you know, here you have this assignment. Help him, you're the one with the most experience in the lab, well go teach this person techniques. And I did. And, I think it's just mostly based on my personality, uh, with peer-peer mentoring it's usually, you know, kindness, um, understanding and being patient, and at the same time, being able to give positive and negative feedback. And be able to pivot if something's wrong, kind of change the strategy. And so my main philosophy is really that this is a learning experience. I'm here to teach and I'm here to learn. And as I actually moved up the ladder in my career, again, there wasn't a specific workshop of how to develop my mentoring style, uh, but it was more Emily, my post-doctoral advisor. And, you know, being able to learn from the good and the bad experiences. But as I actually moved to University of Nevada Reno in 2013, I did take a few workshops and, you know, some training at the NIH, and I've been customizing my mentoring philosophy using the Fink model, uh, F I N K, uh, just-in-time mentoring, and developing an institutional development plan with my graduate students and still having a flexibility and open door policy. So this kind of evolved, uh, because this wasn't something that was trained for, [chuckles] but it was more kind of a hit and miss as we went along. You know, we should be able to mentor giving both positive and negative feedback. And when we give the negative feedback, I'll always try to say something positive before I move on to the negative. And the idea of a negative is, in a way, it's gotta be constructive, intentional, and direct and being able to follow up. And I emphasize customized 'cause everyone has different experiences and needs. And so that's something that I tend to overlook in the past, but learn a lot from. So this wasn't something I wrote down, but this is something that evolved through experience.

Kathryn Graves:

Um, and if I might, I'll just maybe add onto that as someone who's still kind of a trainee and sort of still learning how to mentor, I think the way that I've sort of, um, adapted my strategy as I've gone from being an RA to being a graduate student, is adding elements of sort of formal mentoring, um, as I've sort of learned more and become established in the field. So when I started, my first sort of mentoring experience was actually as a research assistant, a post-graduate research assistant at the University of Pennsylvania. And there I was mentoring undergrads, but I was still very much in a space of, I still have a lot to learn, so we still have a lot to learn, so let's kind of tackle these issues together and, you know, sit and debug together and, you know, share the sense of motivation. And I think, you know, now as a graduate student, especially as a fourth year graduate student, I think elements of formality, like having documents that are a strict sort of set of expectations and roles, um, is something that I have for like each of my mentees. And at the same time, I kind of try to, you know, provide the other side of that, which is making myself available for questions, trying my best to communicate that I am also still learning. So not trying to, you know, minimize any space for my mentees to come and say that they don't understand something, that they're confused, or that they're having a hard time, um, or that they just need to sit in like debug their code with me. So I think, um, I still try to maintain a mix of sort of formal expectations with them understanding that I'm also a human who is still learning. I think there's like a balance there that I'm still working on again, as someone who is still trainee status, but I think is something that, um, has kind of generated into this philosophy that is, you know, understanding that all of this is a learning process and that I just want to help younger trainees along in that process as well, while I'm still on it myself.

Marguerite Matthews:

And I think you'll always be in that position, Kat. We should not ever stop learning or figuring out how to be better mentors. We may start mentoring different people that have different needs that we've never had to deal with before. And even talking with my grad advisor, who I trained with way back in the day. Um, she's been a full professor for a long time and she continues to tell me about things that she's learning and how to better serve her trainees. So I think it's an important thing to recognize, but also know that it's not unique to you. There's still folks, unfortunately, many folks who've been mentoring a long time and have not learned to adapt or to customize or to be flexible. So I think that's a really great, um, observation.

Jasmine Quynh Le:

Primarily, I just really agree with everything that has been said. Um, in particular, I think that it really is a learning experience and you only become a better mentor the more you do it. So I've been very lucky to have had formal mentorships, uh, since high school and being able to evolve from what works and what doesn't work from those experiences. And, similar to Kat, I've gained a formal process in how I mentor, although I will also say that, uh, I like setting expectations from my mentees and also having my expectations, but importantly also making them flexible and letting those evolve as time goes on.

Lauren Ullrich:

So, what was the most, or continues to be the most, difficult for you in the process of becoming a mentor? Is there something in particular that you feel like you struggled with in the past or continue to?

Jasmine Quynh Le:

In my grad career right now, I am mentoring a lot of undergrads. I will say I am working with, um, at least a dozen students right now in science and outside of science. I've been very fortunate to be a part of, uh, the Posse Foundation, being a mentor for them. And the biggest difficulty for me has been adjusting mentoring styles for each individual person. And letting go of expectations and not letting expectations between people transfer over to others. And so I might be wondering, you know, why is this mentee not responding the way I thought they would? Just being okay with that, and then adjusting with that.

Ruben Dagda:

I want to chime in about that and I completely agree. Um, but at my career stage, I have to deal with mentoring multiple undergraduate students, graduate students, postdocs, and even one research faculty. And so, giving them the necessary attention to multiple mentees, uh, with our busy schedules as scientists, you know, whether you're taking classes or teaching. It's just challenging, when you have, you know, more than three mentees. And just trying to cut a slice of the pie and give them the amount of attention they need and follow up with the expectations can be challenging. So I always try to itemize the major goals for each one of them. Having a list of tasks. It sounds, in a way, straight forward, but it helps me put myself on equal footing with everyone to follow up and, I want to make sure I don't give more attention to one mentee as, you know, that could be perceived by others that I, you know, have a favorite mentee or [laughs] that I've given the most attention. And, you know, I just want to spread my attention equally across. And being able to confront the mentee in a positive way when they're not, you know, doing what they're supposed to and being able to deliver negative feedback in a way that they can actually evolve and be more productive. And if they get stagnant in a way, I guess, career-wise then being able to help them in a way that doesn't seem too negative or confrontational. So that's the kind of striking the balance of, you know, how to deliver this and at the same time, encourage them without discouraging them. That's been my challenge, and sometimes it's not the most comfortable experience for any one of us, but we know we gotta do it.[chuckles]

Jasmine Quynh Le:

It does sometimes feel like trial by fire.

Marguerite Matthews:

[laughs] Yeah, because you're like, I don't want to ruin someone's hopes and dreams, but I also need you to, to hold up your end of the bargain and to meet some of these expectations. Yeah. It's always a tricky balance.

Kathryn Graves:

Yeah. I just want to absolutely, um, co-sign on everything that Ruben just said, as far as necessary possible confrontations with students or addressing issues as they arise. I think there's this feeling of not wanting to come off as bossy or overbearing. I think, especially as like a woman in science, there's this identity that you feel like you should avoid, um, of being bossy in any situation. But at the same time, especially when working with very new trainees, it can be sometimes hard to communicate that there are stakes to the science that you're doing when you sort of break out of classroom and into real world science, there are stakes that maybe the students don't fully understand or appreciate. Um, and so the specific things that I think have worked on, um, sort of implementing to overcome this, um, not exactly fear, but just maybe hesitance to address issues is trying to use we statements instead of you. So not wanting to sound too accusatory, but pointing out like, you know, this was an issue. In the future, we need to do this, so let's make sure this doesn't happen again. And, and sort of communicating it as this is team science, so let's make sure that, you know, we correct our actions in the future. And then also, um, it sounds a little cheesy, but like the compliment sandwich I feel like is always a nice default. So here's something you did great. Here's something that wasn't that awesome, but here's something else that you did nice. So like to finish off on like sort of a good vibe. You know, the last thing that I want is my mentees to feel like they can't come to me when they make mistakes or feel like they're going to get yelled at or anything like that. So, I try and sort of stay within that space and that's definitely helped me to be more direct when issues come up.

Lauren Ullrich:

Yeah. And I feel like another thing that, that I try to do is to, rather than assuming that I understand the situation or what's going on in their head, or even assuming that we have the same understanding of what happened, but to really ask questions about, you know, how do you feel about how that went as opposed to telling them [laughs] that didn't go great. I think sometimes coming from that, that questioning space, you can start having a more productive conversation than a more accusatory one.

Marguerite Matthews:

So along those lines, how do you all approach mentoring a given student? Do you have sort of a default way that you approach all your students and then you start tailoring, um, once you learn about them more? Or do you kind of like figure out what it is that makes them tick and then start from there? Yeah. Just what is your process? Obviously all people are different, but curious to know what your approach is when mentoring, um, various students.

Ruben Dagda:

I guess, on my career stage, I already structure, uh, expectations especially when I don't know the mentee and they want to come and work in my research laboratory. I always have a full day of orientation. Uh, this is my research. I, you know, provide them the literature. I present a few posters, then I go into their career goals, um, and what are they looking for? And then I, sort of, go into these are my expectations when you come to the research lab. This is what I expect from you. And this is the type of research experience that you're going to get from me and the learning process. And so obviously it's gonna take more than one day, but I try to lay out the expectations, you know, we gotta be a good lab citizen and, you know, get along with others, and this is how we get along in the lab. This is our values as a group and also culturally speaking, we respect each other. And so I laid out those expectations. And so there's no miscommunication later on. You know, "you didn't tell me this," or "I didn't think this was expected out of me." And as I mentioned before, I want to know the mentees specifically, what are their career goals. So like, I want to be able to provide that, as a mentor, I'm invested in their careers and they're not just there to help me, right? And it should be a, a learning experience for both of us. Uh, so I tried to lay it out from the first day and then kind of follow up with do you have any other questions? And so it's not going to be done in one session. It may take a few more sessions as we, you know, build the chemistry between the mentee and the mentor.

Kathryn Graves:

So at my stage, I think I mostly tailor my mentorship to the student's sense of motivation, which I try and thrash out in initial meetings and also the roles that they, um, are hoping to fill within the lab, whether it's working as a work- study student or taking lab participation for course credit, um, and then also just how interested they seem in my work and whether they're also being co-mentored on other projects with other lab members. So for example, I'm currently working with a student, an undergrad, who has been a fantastic undergrad research assistant and who, um, throughout the pandemic especially, has wanted to read papers, and when we can't collect data, um, you know, discuss ideas and come up with paradigms. Um, and so, you know, we schedule our weekly meetings, she comes with data to show and, you know, we talk through it and, my priority is making sure that I am able to respond to her over Slack when she has questions, et cetera. Um, whereas in the past there've been more students who mostly just want to work on existing projects. Um, and so with that, checking in when they have questions, but kind of letting them lead their involvement by checking in with me as they have time. And that obviously fluctuates based on their changing interests. But I think, um, the more that a student sort of wants to take charge of a project and wants to take ownership the more I sort of invest time, not just moving projects forward, but making sure they're learning the new skills that they want to learn and to providing them the resources. But then outside of the lab, as a fellow in the office of graduate student development and diversity here at Yale, also mentoring in more of like, an academic big sibling kind of role where I've been paired with students in the neuroscience department who are first years. And in that it's more just trying to help get through graduate school. And it's particularly geared towards, um, students of color. And so, there, I feel like, especially as a scientist of color, part of my role is holding the door open for younger generations of students of color and scientists of color. So, um, I completely tailor my role to making sure that any resources that I've benefited from, they know exists. So one of the students that I'm mentoring now, I told her when she's ready to apply for the DSPAN award, I'm going to send her my application materials and help her work on her application, um, and things like that. So, I feel like there are multiple different types of mentor hats that one can wear throughout graduate school. And I really try and tailor, um, based on those things.

Jasmine Quynh Le:

I definitely agree talking about expectations is so important. And aside from laying out my expectations, I also find it very important to know exactly what the mentee wants out of a mentor and mentee relationship. And this is on a human level and scientific level. So, while I also wear a lot of hats mentoring in more academic setting, and then also in the lab, I think that having the human aspect is very important. And the sharing of expectations will also lead to, uh, being able to see what I could offer that I hadn't thought about before. And then on top of that, I also think that regular check-ins with mentees on work and also on emotions and how they feel, um, is important. And whether those expectations that were talked about at the beginning still feel reasonable or not. And you can adjust going from that.

Marguerite Matthews:

That's a really great point.' Cause things that, that worked at the beginning may not necessarily work later on depending on one's circumstances or even just the nature of the work. So that's a really great point, Jasmine.

Lauren Ullrich:

So one of the things, um, when we're talking to mentees about, you know, choosing a mentor, um, we talk a lot about, "oh, make sure you find a mentor who's a good fit for you," but the converse is also true, right? Like as a mentor, you want to be mentoring mentees that are a good fit for you. And so is that something you have thought about in your mentoring relationships and how do you determine if you'll be a good mentor for someone? Um, and what's the role of shared background or other characteristics in the mentoring relationship, or making that decision?

Ruben Dagda:

Okay, um I must say that, um, for the chemistry to click, you're right, uh, it has to work for both the mentee and a mentor, uh, especially if a graduate student is doing a lab rotation uh, it doesn't only have to be a scientific fit. It has to be, in a way, career fit and, also personality, in a way. Um, for instance, there might be a mentor who travels every week and gives multiple conferences and never available for the mentee and all they do is just assign someone else. Even though they may be a Nobel Laureate or someone who's a great scientist, that may not benefit the mentee. So on the mentee side, I like someone who's inquisitive, has questions. I had a few experiences where, you know, a couple of mentees seem great on paper and I kinda ended up talking to myself a lot. I was like, do you have any questions? No. You haven't developed a hypothesis. You know, if I don't see someone being energetic, I don't get energetic.[chuckles] So, to, to devote my time I like someone who's inquisitive, and, you know, actually able to ask the great questions, develop hypotheses. And also personality wise, being able to interact. It's okay to deal with all sorts of personalities, but at least have the ability to communicate and be inquisitive. And, in addition to being a good lab citizen. For me as a mentor, because I have a very diverse lab, I always have to look into the mentees background, uh, that may actually hint me into specific needs or being able to have, you know, those cultural boundaries and respect that. And so that is something that I always pay attention to, especially for diverse research groups. And I always try to have a science being the common language among different cultures, but at the same time, being able to respect the boundaries. And so that's something I always want to, you know, pay attention as well as a mentor.

Jasmine Quynh Le:

I think mentorship is definitely a two-way street and fit can make it go really, really far. But I also think that a good mentor is a good mentor and can work with a more difficult mentee, um, as hard and as sucky it may be. But I think for me, the biggest determinant is if we can communicate honestly and kindly and effectively. And so similar background helps a lot, but I don't think it is required. I think having similar passions, um, helps a lot more and, yeah, background is nice, but we all have the same background of being students at some point. So there's always that.

Kathryn Graves:

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Um, and so I would say for me as well, background is not necessarily anything that I sort of threshold by, um, particularly because here in sort of cognitive neuroscience slash psychology, it really helps to have a creative background, I think, or at least maybe a diverse background to think of new ways to ask and answer questions. Um, and so I think for me, it's more, can I, in some way index how motivated this student is, especially because at my stage, I'm primarily mentoring undergraduates, and then postgraduate RAs, it's a question of, you know, did they take a peek at the lab website? Do they have a sense of what exactly we're doing as we're talking and I'm telling them the method that I'm using? So if it's kind of a specific method, um, do they seem interested in it? And does it seem like they just kind of cast a wide net and are just looking for a lab to do their, you know, bare minimum honors thesis or are they actually coming with ideas or at least an excitement for a science that's going to be able to carry itself for, um, a year, two years, et cetera. And then beyond that, I really agree that, um, a good mentor is able to sort of mentee someone at sort of any stage. I think as long as that motivation is there and that you, as a good mentor, know how to stoke that motivation, and excite that student, um, as long as they're motivated to work, I think that a good mentor- mentee relationship can exist. And I've definitely had some great experiences mentoring students with vastly different backgrounds from mine, some who are vastly better coders or programmers than I am. And who've done some really, really great work, um, and have stayed motivated and generated some really cool science.

Marguerite Matthews:

Okay, I have a sub question. Have you had a mentee that you thought would be a really good fit and it just did not turn out to be a good match? I mean, in thinking about like these things that you see in someone that you think would make them a good fit, has it turned out that that wasn't necessarily the case and it could be maybe just that one individual or is it like, maybe looking for someone who has this quality is not the best thing.

Kathryn Graves:

If I can speak super generally about that. I think one thing that I'll say is in multiple labs that I've, uh, had the pleasure of working in, um, there are students who are super qualified on paper and have, you know, a lot of programming experience had taken all the right classes, great at statistics, et cetera. And then it just seems like they're not into the specific questions that you're asking. And so I think two things about that. So I just recently talked to a really impressive student, just over Zoom, who was interested in doing research, who was specifically interested in neuropsychology, um, and that's not something I do. I work proximal to that, but I'm not, I'm not asking neuropsychology questions. And so as much as I was interested in this student, I knew that I needed to direct them to the right research home, even though on paper, I knew that they would be able to do great work. And that's something that has happened in, you know, the lab that I'm in and in previous labs is even if the student is just a fantastic worker, um, I think the issues arise when they are just not in the environment that speaks to their interests. And so no matter how, you know, skilled they are, um, I think it's more the role of the mentor at that point to try and direct them in the right way. So now, like the students that I'm thinking of are now in other labs where they're happy and generating great work. And so it feels like a loss at times when we're, you know, saying goodbye to someone who we know can do incredible work with the environment that we create. But it's also, I think on us to point them in the right direction. We know they're not going to be happy and productive in the space that we've created.

Ruben Dagda:

So I want to echo, what Kat had just mentioned. I had, uh, one instance of a superb student on paper, you know, top GPA, even doing research. And this particular graduate student was doing a lab rotation and as I mentioned before, um, she wasn't asking questions. She wasn't very motivated and I actually had a few sessions, like, you know, "Hey, what's going on? Is there something going on? You know, you don't seem very interested." And it's not a bad thing. And I actually told her there are other research labs, I think she wanted to do more of the bench work, bioinformatics, and do more cognitive neuroscience. Um, but this is something that I always try to find right off the bat, you know, is this student interested or are they stagnant? And if they're stagnant, I'll try to find them a new home. Communication is key, you know, it might be great on paper, but if they don't provide that interest, that inquisitiveness, then it's just not going to work out in terms of the chemistry.

Lauren Ullrich:

Our last question, um, where do you access support for your continuing development as a mentor? And do you feel your department or your program or institution is supportive of growth in that space? Or do you have to go outside to find those resources?

Ruben Dagda:

For me, we have a faculty mentor program here at the university, but also, um, when I was a graduate student, my mentor was great uh, to point out the different workshops that NIH provided for mentoring. And as I went as a postdoc, there were, uh, workshops at the University of Pittsburgh. So there are institutional workshops available, but also, for me, the National Research Mentoring Network, it's supported by the NIH, it has a certificate for graduate students, postdocs and faculty. And I go to societies like SACNAS, uh, and ABRCMS that have some mentoring workshops. When I go to judge posters, I try to go to those as well. Uh, so I always look for the opportunity. If I go to a conference, you know, take one of those workshops that are freely available, because a lot of institutions don't have any workshops for this, or they don't have this infrastructure.

Kathryn Graves:

So in my experience, so aside from the formal mentorship that I've had the privilege of receiving from my advisor, Dr. Nick Turk-Browne, a lot of the sort of student- level or trainee- level mentorship at my university that I've gotten to take advantage of has been sort of grassroots or sort of student driven. So I mentioned the Office of Graduate student development and Diversity. We have a mentorship program where we pair up fellows with students, um, and so that's kind of, again, older trainees mentoring younger trainees. And then also in, in my department itself, the Psychology Department, we have a committee on diversity and inclusion here, um, which I was previously co-chair of, and we also do a similar sort of matching of older students with younger students. And so, especially when I was a first and second year, I had two mentors who were both fourth years, I think at the time that I came to Yale and I would do things like practicing presentations in front of them, asking them questions about the program and deadlines and papers that I had to write and expectations and culture of, uh, of the department as a whole. Um, and so a lot of the sort of trainee to trainee mentorship was really motivated by students and also is something that, as a general plug, I think it could be instituted at a lot of different, uh, different university. And it is really quite helpful is having someone who's done it before, be able to give you this sort of insider perspective. Um, and so that's the majority of where I get mentorship from now. And then also the, the capacity in which I mentor at least outside of my, my specific research and work is with other trainees, both in my department and at other, other departments at Yale.

Jasmine Quynh Le:

That's really great to hear that you had that mentorship opportunity. And I'm glad to hear you talk about the peer mentoring, because I actually started a peer mentoring program at my university within the neuroscience program, which has expanded to other departments as well. And most of my professional development um, in mentorship has come from the Posse Foundation, which has been very instrumental. It has connected me with a lot of faculty and staff and graduate students from around the country. And we get together and have trainings together and get to talk about mentoring from all these different aspects, which is really great. Within my university, there is not that much built in, in terms of formal professional development in mentorship, but a lot of faculty and staff have been doing it for years. And so they are actually the number one resource that I go to. I see faculty and staff that are really great mentors and I come to them for advice, talk to them about problems. I look up to them and, um, they're very helpful. And overall, I think the important part in developing mentorship, um, is also having a layered network of people who care about the same students and stuff like that. And so I find that is very helpful, you know, if many people are invested in the wellbeing of multiple students or mentees.

Lauren Ullrich:

Such a great point. I think it's so important to, you know, when you're trying to work through, a, a situation or a challenge with a mentee to get that outside perspective, because, you know, when you're in it, it's very hard to, to think about other avenues or other possibilities. So, yeah, I, I like that perspective too.[musical interlude]

Marguerite Matthews:

Well, thank you all for sharing your wisdom today. I'm so inspired, [laughs] especially by these graduate students who are taking their mentoring, uh, to another level. It's really awesome to hear that you all have the opportunity to be mentors. And you see the value in learning and growing both as a researcher, but also as someone who is in a position to train other students. So for each of you, can you share one last piece of parting advice for our audience?

Ruben Dagda:

So I just want to say quickly that, um, I really want to commend Kat and Jasmine for being able to mentor. Why? Because that's going to enrich their careers. In my experience mentoring, it's something that people overlook."Oh, I don't have time. I don't want to do this. It's just a volunteer on my time." But I will encourage the audience to, if you have an opportunity to mentor a student, or you know, even if it's peer to peer mentor, vertical mentoring in your career, do that because when you give, uh, you know, service, you feel satisfied. I feel satisfied. And I also receive back in a way, and I, I think I develop more as a person, as a human being and also in my career. So I really commend our graduate students on the podcast doing that. It's really, you know, exceptional.

Kathryn Graves:

So I'll go ahead and share mine, and I just want to, um, also thank Jasmine and Ruben, I had a wonderful time sharing this space and hearing about both of your experiences as well. Um, so I guess my parting advice would be to remember that, as Jasmine said earlier, that mentorship is a, a sort of two way street in that just as you're teaching your mentees, they're also sort of teaching you, whether it's a hard skill that they have and you don't, or it's just a way of thinking about a problem that you've been working on for years and they have a slightly different perspective. Um, even if it's their, their confusion about things and the ways that they need help might teach you a different way of mentorship or even a different way of going about your own work. Um, I have had a very enriching experience being a mentor to some excellent mentees and have, um, helped them grow, but also grow in myself as a scientist. And so, as far as the value of mentorship, there's also a huge value add for you as a mentor. And to just remember that, that it gets to be a learning experience for you too. And that's one of the things that makes it so rewarding.

Jasmine Quynh Le:

Thank you all for such a great conversation. I've had a really great time learning from everyone too. And thank you for having us on this podcast, especially. Um, my parting advice is to be honestly human. I think it is such a good reminder that I make mistakes. You can make mistakes and it's all okay, as long as we learn from it. And, I have been very lucky to have had a lot of vertical mentoring, also peer mentoring, and it has made me appreciate mentorships more and has made me want to pay it forward more. So I really can owe it to all of my previous mentors for who I am today and how much I want to mentor others.

Marguerite Matthews:

Awesome. Lauren, what's your advice?

Lauren Ullrich:

Well, I was going to say that it's okay to make mistakes, but Jasmine just said it. So now I have to think of a different one.[laughs] Um, so I'll just reiterate something that we talked about earlier in the podcast, which is diversifying your mentorship. And that it's probably best not to have just one mentor that you rely on, but really think about, um, all the different people that are invested in you and can give you, you know, different kinds of advice and different kinds of perspective, um, and really developing that, that mentoring network. What about you, Marguerite?

Marguerite Matthews:

I think that mentoring should be taken as seriously as any other knowledge seeking that we do, especially as scientists. And we should constantly be thinking about new tools or new ways to look at things. And I hope people see investing in mentorship development is just as important as attending a scientific conference, going to a talk, um, giving a talk, and that it only will make us better and our trainee stronger. And I hope that even the best mentors continue to pour into themselves, um, and building their mentoring opportunities.

Lauren Ullrich:

Well put.[outro music] So that's all we have time for today on Building Up The Nerve. And this season we're ending every episode with a reflection question. So this episode we invite you to reflect on: what qualities do you want to embody as a mentor and how do you know if you've achieved them? So thank you to our guests this week for sharing their expertise. And thank you to NINDS program director, Dr. Bob Riddle, who composed our theme song and music. We'll see you next time for the last episode of the season, where we will talk about structural ways that we can encourage good mentorship to flourish.

Marguerite Matthews:

And you can find past episodes of this podcast and many more grant application resources on the web at NINDS.NIH.Gov. Follow us on Twitter@NINDSDiversity and @NINDSFunding. You can email us your questions at NINDSNervePod@nih.gov. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app of choice so you don't miss an episode. We'll see you next time.