NINDS's Building Up the Nerve
Season 5 of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke’s Building Up the Nerve podcast helps you strengthen your science communication skills with tools and advice to use throughout your career. We know that navigating your career can be daunting, but we're here to help—it's our job!
NINDS's Building Up the Nerve
S5E4: Crafting Effective Presentations
In the fifth Season of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke’s Building Up the Nerve podcast, we help you strengthen your science communication skills with tools and advice to use throughout your career. We know that navigating your career can be daunting, but we're here to help—it's our job!
In the fourth episode of the season, we talk about Crafting Effective Presentations, focusing on how presentations are used in traditional science communication and how to effectively present in different forms and venues, with accessibility built in by design.
Featuring Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa, MD, Professor, Endowed Chair, and Dean of Research at Mayo Clinic Florida; Alicia Wooten, PhD, Co-Founder of Atomic Hands, and Associate Professor at Gallaudet University; Huda Zoghbi, MD, Professor at Baylor College of Medicine, Investigator at Howard Hughes Medical Institute, and Director at Texas Children’s Hospital.
Please note that Dr. Alicia Wooten conducts the interview via ASL with a voice interpreter. To watch this podcast episode with ASL interpretation, please visit: [YOUTUBE LINK].
Resources
- Atomic Hands: https://atomichands.com/
Transcript available at http://ninds.buzzsprout.com/.
Welcome to Season 5 of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke's Building Up the Nerve, where we help you strengthen your science communication skills with tools and advice to use throughout your career. We know that navigating your career can be daunting, but we're here to help— it's our job!
Marguerite Matthews:Hello, I'm Marguerite Matthews, Section Chief for Career Preparation at NINDS.
Lauren Ullrich:And I'm Lauren Ullrich, Section Chief for Career Advancement at NINDS, and we're your hosts today.
Marguerite Matthews:In our last episode, we discussed collaborating with partners in research. Today, we're going to talk about crafting effective presentations which will focus on how presentations are used in traditional science communication and how to effectively present in different forms and venues with accessibility built in by design.[music] Joining us are our guests, Dr. Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa, Dr. Alicia Wooten, and Dr. Huda Zoghbi. As a note, Dr. Wooten uses American Sign Language and was voiced by an interpreter for this podcast. To watch the episode with ASL interpretation, check the show notes for a link to the video. Now let's start with introductions.
Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa:My name is Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa. Also known as Dr. Q. I am the Dean of Research at the Mayo Clinic in Florida, in Jacksonville, Florida. I am also a Director of the Brain Tumor Stem Cell Laboratory. And in general, when I communicate my work, I like to make it fun. I like to make it approachable. And I like to tell stories. The science that I do in my laboratory has to do with the ability of cancer cells to go and grow. And we try to identify these molecular engines that allow these cancer cells to move all over the brain and put brakes on them so that way we can find ways to treat patients with brain cancer.
Alicia Wooten:Hello, my name's Alicia Wooten. I'm an Associate Professor of Biology at Gallaudet University. Gallaudet University is the only university for the Deaf in the world. I'm also an Executive Director and Co-founder of Atomic Hands. Atomic hands is a non-profit organization with the goal of focusing on providing accessibility for Deaf and hard of hearing people through ASL (American Sign Language). Oftentimes you'll see that many resources don't have captioning or ASL access, so Deaf people who are excited to learn about STEM have no accessibility to that content. As a result, that leads to less people being involved in STEM. One of the largest missions of Atomic Hands is to change that mindset and provide accessibility, as well as to show that there are many Deaf and hard of hearing STEM professionals out there. So that's what I do. I teach biology at a college level. And I focus on accessibility for all age groups.[Sigh] If I had to pick three words to describe my communication philosophy, that is really a hard answer to narrow down, but I would say relatability, flexibility, and creativity.
Huda Zoghbi:I'm Huda Zoghbi, Professor at Baylor College of Medicine, and Director of the Duncan Neurological Research Institute at Texas Children's Hospital in Houston, and Investigator with the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. I started my career as a physician--Pediatric Neurologist--encountering children with devastating neurologic diseases, especially Rett syndrome, inspired me to change career path and go into science to really figure out the causes of these disorders and understand them. And I'm fortunate that that has been the case. And fast forward to today, some of our basic science is leading to clinical trial to help some of these same disorders. I work, in addition to childhood diseases, now on Alzheimer's, an adult neurodegenerative disease. So my three words to describe what I aim for in a presentation is accessibility and logic. I like storytelling. And informative. I hope everyone will learn something from the talk.
Lauren Ullrich:Love that. And we had a whole episode about storytelling earlier in the season, so we're right on our theme.[music] All right. So to start us off, we're going to go big picture. Why even present your work at scientific conferences or workshops and symposia and things like that? What are we as a scientific community trying to accomplish with these presentations?
Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa:I believe that presenting our work, your work, in major scientific meetings, or maybe even minor scientific meetings, is important because I think that not only it allows, it gives an opportunity to the presenter to learn about things that we may not be thinking about in our own science, but also gives an opportunity to give others hope that the work that we're doing is advancing the field. And eventually for me, given my profession and taking care of patients as a scientist, it's important to give patients hope.
Alicia Wooten:For me, like Huda, it's all about telling a story, so that people can understand the whole goal is often for my friends and family who have no scientific background to say "Oh, wow! That's really cool!" And what they do next is we'll relay that information to other people and tell other people what they've learned. So for me, what I do, all of that information is important. It makes it easy for other people to understand the information. And that makes me happy!
Huda Zoghbi:So for me, the reason to present at scientific meeting is to really share information, learn, and also get a different perspective on our work. You know, we live in this lab and we're all excited and we all have ideas and we go somewhere and we think this is the way it is. But sometimes, somebody with fresh eyes coming from a totally different field has a different set of information, might interpret our data or think of our finding in a very different light. So to me, that's really, really important. And of course, if there's information to be shared so that people can build on that, that's another reason. I make a point of having someone from the lab present at the key scientific meetings that you know, are within our discipline. So I cannot go to all the meeting, but I can assure you my trainees are even better ambassadors for the lab and are very smart to capture input, so we keep that exchange going always through everybody in the lab, not just me.
Marguerite Matthews:I love that you called them trainee ambassadors. I think that's important seeing them as just as capable of sharing the information from your lab as you as the head of the lab. Can you all talk about how you approach giving scientific presentations? I mean, there's so many different forms. You have poster talks, you have oral presentations where someone is giving sort of an uninterrupted talk. Sometimes there are longer talks that may span close to an hour versus a shorter talk that's maybe 10 or 15 minutes. Can you talk about how you choose the type of presentations you give and also how you're able to make those different types of presentations accessible for everyone?
Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa:For me, putting a presentation together, it's like telling a story. And I love storytelling. For me, the best stories is the one story that gives you a sense as to why you want to learn about something. So, in my case, I battle brain cancer. Every time I give a presentation, I tailor that presentation to my audience. If I am scheduled to give a virtual presentation or an in-person presentation, or even if it is a poster. I start with the title. The title has to be catchy. It has to be brief. It has to capture the imagination. It has to be such a title that people are going to want to go into that room, you know, potentially spend their lunch time or their dinner time listening to you. And once they go in, I like to tell them why they're there. Why is this so important? How many patients are dying of cancer every single day? And then I like to make it personal. I like to tell them, let me introduce you to patient Mr. or Ms., X name, and I tell them the story of that patient, that family, and something that connected me to that patient. And then I go from that to, "this is their disease, and these are the lack of information that we have to be able to find cure for their disease." And then I link it to the work or the presentation that I am giving. And then I go full circle. Then I go through this journey of my own presentation, my own science, the results. I like the slides to be self explanatory. I personally dislike slides that have too much information. They have to be either one graph complemented by storytelling. Has to be one picture. It has to be a few words. The bigger the words, and it has to be really, the type of slide that if it is colorful, the background should be, you know, as muted as possible, so that way it's not distracting. And then I end up, the story that I'm telling, linking back to my introduction. I always try to, for me, the introduction is like the books that you put in a bookshelf. The bookholders, they have to open and they have to end. And I think for me that storytelling, the best talks that I attend are those that captivate me and I leave those talks learning one, two, or three things at the most because you can't learn every single detail or sparks and ignites my curiosity that I want to learn more about it. And/or I remember something personal about that speaker that allows me to learn more about that particular topic. And ideally it's something that then lets me use that information to make my own work even better.
Huda Zoghbi:So each talk requires a different style of preparation, whether it's me or my student. In a 10 or 15 minute talk, you have to really set the question very clearly, show what you set out to do and the result, and give one important conclusion. You cannot tell the story of the lab all in 10 to 15 minutes. It has to be a very focused message, and you have to convince the audience that the piece of data you generated supports that conclusion. So that's a very short talk. I think in a longer talk, and those are the ones I enjoy the most, you can now tell a story. You can really start by"Why did you go there? Why are you studying this problem? What inspired you? What are you curious about? What is a challenge to solve?" And then walk the reader through that in a storytelling chapter by chapter. Make sure they're learning from every chapter and always pull them back together because they may get lost somewhere in the middle. Make sure you're reminding them of where the story is going and how far we've reached within the story. So a longer talk is a very different talk. A poster, I have a very simple philosophy about poster. Poster sessions are overwhelming. Nobody has time to sit and read every poster. If you're going to read every poster, you will not learn much. And, you know, it's not a good use of the time. So what I suggest is that every title of every figure legend tells the conclusion. So if somebody wants to stop and look at that figure, they can really look at the panel and immediately know from the title what's in that panel. Make the conclusions very clear because some people, this is not their field. They just want to know what problem you're solving. What did you find out? So poster have to be very accessible, very simple, less detailed. You can always provide detail for those who stop and get information. So these are, in general, at a very high level, my approaches to these styles of talk. We can dig deeper into how you prepare the slide and so on after we hear from Alicia.
Alicia Wooten:I completely agree with everything you said, Huda. During grad school, my PI taught me the same thing. One of the rules that I've always followed during every presentation and poster session is to have that clear title. The title really should be your conclusion. What is the big picture of that? Make sure that you're showing that in your figures. Because people who come in who may not know anything about the field as a Deaf person, I often look at the interpreter and then look at the slide. So sometimes I do miss information. So I like to make sure that the key information is on the slide, one simple sentence to explain it all. Where I can look, get all of that information myself. And as someone who has a very short memory, short term memory, I like repetition. Why are we doing this? What is the big picture? And again, I like to use friends and family as my threshold. So if they can't understand what I'm saying, then I'm not explaining it well enough. So I try to figure out a nice balance between the scientific language and more layperson's language, depending on the situation. If we're in an academic setting, I'll be using less layperson language, but if I know people who don't necessarily have my expertise, I do use more informal language.
Marguerite Matthews:I hadn't previously appreciated that being more efficient with how you title slides or figures can also help folks who may have to have their attention in other places, Alicia. Like talking about having to go between a slide and an interpreter. It's a piece of accessibility I hadn't really appreciated before, but it does so much for any type of audience to be able to know exactly what's happening, and then you learn how they got to that conclusion or that result.
Huda Zoghbi:That's true, and I'd like to add one more point to the accessibility issue. Having a clear title that's the conclusion on the slide is really important. The one image or piece of data that's supported, that's great. But also you have to imagine someone who cannot see the slides. And in that case, they're relying on what you say. And I am always insistent that what comes out in words matches exactly what's on the slide, no less and no more. Because if you start talking about so many things to explain something that's not in the slide, someone who can't see your slide is lost. On the other hand, if what you're saying doesn't match the images, the person who just sees the images is confused. So I think it's really, really important. I insist on that. I always rehearse my students and fellows to really, really stick to what you're saying. You want to add another slide so that you can say more, do it. But always stick so that what's being said and what's being projected are matching.
Alicia Wooten:One pro tip for accessibility for Deaf folks and Visually Impaired folks is, you say "this" or "that;" oftentimes you'll hear that from presenters. So if I am using an interpreter, if you say "this," I'm looking at that, and then I lose whatever is being said at the same time. So, if you say "Oh, on the left side, or the right side, and the top right corner," I'll immediately know where to look and I don't have to scan the slide and be able to focus back on the interpreter. So using that descriptive language makes things more clear, so that don't get flustered. So that's a pro tip for giving presentations. Don't say "this" or "that," but instead use directive language.
Huda Zoghbi:Really good point, Alicia. And I would add also to amplify your point, is people rely so much on the pointer and the cursor, and very few people really know how to use it effectively. They're either using it distracting everyone else, or not that effective. I like to describe what I want to highlight rather. So this way I'm never stuck. If there's never a pointer, I can still give my talk by describing exactly what I am seeing. The panel I want them to focus on. And if you keep your slides simple, it's easy to do that. So I would encourage people to minimize the use of pointers as much as possible and describe what they're seeing. Again, it helps those that are Visually Impaired, of course.
Lauren Ullrich:I think this is the perfect segway into talking a little bit more about either the visual component or other aids that you might have. Sometimes we even have physical demonstrations with a poster or other presentations. So how do you think about putting your slides together or putting a poster together? We talked a little bit about the take home piece, but are there other considerations? Like my pet peeve is when somebody shows up and there's a hundred words on a single slide and I'm just like"Are you just going to read this to me? Why am I here?" So do you have strategies for making effective slides or posters or other aids?
Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa:I think, in my opinion, the best posters, and I love going to meetings. And I love going up and down reviewing posters. There are so many hidden pearls for me. Like going through the poster session, I imagine is the way that American Pickers feel going through a garage where they're going to find all kinds of pearls, hidden pearls, or treasures. For me, going through the posters, there are a lot of posters that should have been selected for major platform talks, and they're hidden. And your secret is to find those pearls. And the best posters are the ones that follow the same principle. The title is big and it's catchy. There's an introduction, there's a methodology, there's the results, and the results are extraordinarily clear with clear graphics. The actual pictures are self explanatory. And then there's conclusion, two or three points that allow you to really take something away. And you can read them. You can literally read them in two or three minutes, and that to me is very, very powerful.
Alicia Wooten:I'll also add, I know that there's a lot of things that come from a Deaf perspective that really benefit everybody, not just the Deaf community. As a Deaf presenter, when I'm presenting to a Deaf audience, oftentimes the slide will come up and then I'll take a pause to let people read the slide, and then return back to the presenter. So, oftentimes, hearing people will click the slide and then they'll start speaking immediately. But with the Deaf community, the approach is a little bit different because of that pause. You do lose a little bit of time, and it also challenges me to reduce my content to what's really important. And oftentimes when I'm reviewing my slides, I think what words are redundant? What words are filter words? What are the key points that I want to make? Do I need a full sentence or can I do shorter bullet points? And then I can expand on that while I'm presenting. And I fully agree that if you don't need the text, and can replace it with an image, do so. Some people will agree, some people will disagree, but for my PhD presentation, one of my last slides, I had a large photo of a cell. I studied pneumonia during my PhD and how bacteria impacts the immune system. So I had one large picture of a macrophage that showed the pathways. And instead of using words to describe that, I used a picture. And because of that, I received a lot of good feedback. People said "Oh, wow, that was really clear! It was really easy to understand." So that really worked for me.
Marguerite Matthews:So along those lines of thinking about how best to make the talk you're giving or sharing the information that you want to share. How do you also make it engaging? How do you capture your audience and perhaps even make assumptions of how you think they're vibing with the material? And do you have different considerations for how you engage an audience with a poster versus a talk, versus perhaps more of a teaching, like, more like a webinar perhaps where you're teaching information versus just sharing results of a study that you've done.
Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa:It's interesting. I was in Washington, D.C. last week and a doctor came to me and said "Dr. Q, you don't remember me, but I was a student at Johns Hopkins and I attended all your lectures." I'm a brain surgeon, all right, and I'm a scientist. And I was always the top or the second, every year I would get the top or the second best scores for my lectures. And it was very simple. I did two things. 1) I would bring brains and movies into the classroom of the cases that I was doing. But the thing that had the most success is I would bring in patients
Lauren Ullrich:mmhmm
Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa:battling a certain disease and they would tell the story. And I got to tell you, you're talking about Johns Hopkins, one of the best universities, and I was competing with people who could have a lot more time to prepare their lectures and stuff like that. And I would use very little in the sense of PowerPoints or slides. A lot of the story, of course, I would debrief with the patients and the movies that I would show because I know what I'm doing. And then I will link it back to the scientific endeavors that we're doing. And I will talk about a sodium potassium chloride channel, or a Yes Associated Protein, or some proto-oncogene, or something like that. But put it in a perspective that would make sense based on what they were hearing from that particular patient. And many times my patient would help me tell the story with their own words. Because they would find out what I was doing in the lab. And most people don't realize that I bring a lot of patients to my lab meetings
Lauren Ullrich:mmmm
Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa:for two reasons, to also inspire my own postdocs and graduate students and undergraduates, but also because they themselves can be the best advocates for the work that we do as scientists.
Lauren Ullrich:When I was in graduate school, my first year we had a class that was all the scientific, you know, background of a disease and then some patient or patient advocate would come in and tell their story. And first of all, it's so much more meaningful and I remember those things so much more. But it also I think helps underscore how the classical presentation of disease that we're sort of taught in the textbook is like maybe 1% of the actual patients![laughs] And even thinking about when we're trying to translate into animal models, it just makes that so much harder because people are so variable and you can't really appreciate that until you've talked to people that have the disease or the disorder that you're trying to study.
Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa:One of the most tender moments that I remember in my time in the laboratory, is one time a patient walk into our laboratory and she has one of those aggressive skull based brain cancers. And we had found a way to make an animal model and a rodent with the tumor. And my patient walked into the lab and we were working with animals and I remember the patient put the little animal in her hands and she realized that that was an animal that was an avatar for her disease. And she began to have tears in her eyes to realize that she was being immortalized basically there through the work that was going on in the laboratory. That not only filled me with hope, but also my students, everybody who was around, was filled with the desire to do more to find better therapies for many diseases.
Huda Zoghbi:I think the first principle I use when preparing a talk, make sure your talk will reach and be enjoyable and understandable by someone who's totally outside your field. Which means they know nothing about the topic, and will be appreciated by the expert in the field who knows almost everything as much as you know. So how do you accomplish that? You make sure you give enough background, you set the stage, you make the question interesting and meaningful. What's the reason?? Why do this? Why is this something that interests you? Who should care, right? You have to set all that up, so that the person from outside the field gets it. You make the results accessible, you don't have to explain the technical detail, that's not the place to do it. Unless it's a teaching, you want to teach a method, that's a different story. And then you have to always make sure you're not giving a canned talk. I cannot give a canned talk. I will be bored every time I give a talk, although it could be on the same topic a hundred times. I have to make sure there's something new so I can be excited about it. And so if there's an expert who's read all my papers, who has listened to all my talks, they're going to learn something new. They're going to leave and they'll have learned something new from that talk. Some people sometimes feel they really want to impress everybody and give a talk about all of their new unpublished results. They don't give enough background. Many people in the room will be lost. They don't really get it because you're coming in the tail end of the story. And then some people sometimes feel like they have to explain so much, they don't put that something new and exciting. So I think for me, that's an important balance to engage your audience. Here I'm talking about a scientific audience. For a lay audience, it's totally different. I sometimes use the same slide on the people, whether they're lay, literally, grandmother type and grandfather type, or true scientists. The only thing that changes is what comes out of my mouth. The description, the setup, that will change. But the images will still be the same- simpler, fewer for a lay audience. But I think it's what comes out of your mouth.
Alicia Wooten:I'd like to add- I'm a teacher. I teach college students, and they get bored very easily. They're always on their phones. They fall asleep. So I really have to figure out how to keep people awake and engaged. So I've learned over the years, that I take how I teach and I apply that to my presentations and my presentation style. And again, I'm more of a community-based presenter as opposed to a scientific conference presenter at this moment in time. But with the community, there's a lot of engagement, knowing who's there, who has experience with X, Y, and Z. And they will give me that context, which will allow me to adapt my presentation to my audience and will allow me to pull their interest into my presentation. I think similarly, based on in-person or virtual settings, virtual settings are always nice when you have people on camera, and you can see who is attending your presentation. And I think it's good to include body language in your presentation. Many presenters typically will just stand behind a podium and speak into the microphone without having any physical engagement. I like to move around. I'm moving from one side of the stage to the other so that people are always moving their eyes. I like engaging the audience and keeping their interest. It keeps their brain going and my brain going and I often find that that works for me.
Marguerite Matthews:And if you incorporate dad jokes, you'll be really keeping them![laughter] Either booing you, but they're paying attention because they heard that corny joke and they're like "All right, I'll listen to what you have to say!"
Lauren Ullrich:So Marguerite you subscribe to the all attention is good attention?
Marguerite Matthews:Absolutely! Absolutely! And sometimes it's for my own amusement. I think Huda you know, kind of alluded to this. You have to be excited! And so dad jokes excite me a little bit. So, you know, I'm going to throw one out there, see how it sticks.
Lauren Ullrich:I agree. It's very bad when you're boring yourself!
Huda Zoghbi:Alicia said something that's really, really important, and it reminded me that it is very critical for me when giving a talk. And that is looking at your audience, looking in their eyes. For me, Zoom is extremely painful because I lose that element. But when I'm in a room, my eyes are constantly scanning the audience. And if I see somebody squinting and somebody's just like, they look lost, I immediately make sure I clarify something. I realize I must have said something that's not accessible. I immediately amplify it or try to explain it more simply. I do that. Which brings me to a point, and that's a style I personally cannot stand it when the speaker is constantly looking at their slides. They're giving the back to the audience, and they're looking at their slide. I'm sorry, I expect you to know your slides. I expect you to just, as you're presenting, you see the screen in front of you, make sure there is a screen somewhere, computer screen in front of you, that you know what's there, and look at the audience. You lose part of the engagement by giving them your back. You're talking to a screen rather than to them. So that for me is really important. And by doing that, I'm able to really watch my audience and making sure I'm not losing anyone.
Lauren Ullrich:And I wanted to do a little bit of a deeper dive into the poster session and how to present a poster because I feel like there's so many times where I don't go up to a poster because I'm afraid I'm going to be trapped for 15 minutes and I don't have that kind of time! Like I need the three minute spiel and then once you've sucked me in maybe we can talk a little bit more. So how do you all approach the poster presentation or do you have any advice for our listeners?
Huda Zoghbi:I walk to a poster and I tell the presenter "I have two minutes" because I want to see all the poster. Please tell me your work in two minutes. And I will really walk around and slip away if they're just going on and on. And it is really important because it's training for the trainees. If we teach them how to do that, we're helping them. So that's what I do. I walk up and I just say, I need this in two minutes.
Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa:I tell myself when I present the poster, because I still love presenting posters; you're never too senior, you're never too junior, you're going to learn-- if you love learning, you're going to learn from not only making a poster as much as you're going to learn if you give a TED talk. What I tell my students, my disciples, my postdocs. Learn how to, one, read the room, the energy of a room, because it's just more than the person, it's who else is around. Because sometimes it'll be one person asking you, and there'll be five or ten people around, and you have to learn how to keep eye contact with the person that is asking the question, at the same time as you need to be aware of your surroundings, who else is there. Number 1, you should always have a 60 second spiel, an elevator pitch that you can tell in 60 seconds and see whether or not that person asking you a question gets caught in asking more questions. So they're going to tell you themselves. Or they get distracted in someone else, you know, it's trying to fill in or ask more questions. And at the same time, if you see that interaction, you should be ready to go more in depth as to the work they have in front of them and the work that you are presenting. One of things that I always tell my disciples and I tell myself is learn how to dissect that poster from the methodology all the way from the title, to the methods, to the results, and the conclusion in a short amount of time. Or if there's a lot of engagement, in a longer amount of time. And I think that once again, it's about telling stories. Don't get confused. You have to still learn how to tell a story and leave them with one or two little things. And they may be big things and always try to wrap it up. And like I said before, at the beginning, learn how to read the person as well as the room.
Marguerite Matthews:One thing I like Dr. Q that you mentioned was not just reading the vibe of the person you're talking to, but maybe even picking up on the cues of folks who may be standing around. Because it is a very delicate dance in a way, those poster sessions. People may come up and just immediately, like, they don't care what you were just telling this other person that was there, they're going to start asking their questions, or maybe they heard a part of what you were saying and maybe you want to get in like "Oh, can you say a little bit more about this?" I think the more you can prepare your trainees to think about how to feel comfortable sort of sticking to what they feel comfortable talking about, but also being willing to pivot, right? Being a little flexible and adaptable. Because to your point, you're telling a story and maybe you have to come in on telling that story at different points. Maybe you have to go back to the beginning, kind of start over. You didn't get to tell the whole end. But because you're so comfortable with all those different parts of the story, you can expand on one section. Maybe you can, you know, reiterate some sections to help really drive home the point when you see people nodding, like they get it, or you have that like glazed look and you can tell that they don't know what you're talking about. And you can start over or ask them "So do you know anything about brain tumors?" Or are you familiar with this technique? Or have you ever had a chance to hold a tumor in your hand?" You know, really making them feel like they are part of history, even though this may be their first time interacting with the information or with you for that matter.
Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa:I want to elaborate on one other point about this. People think that posters and the person presenting the poster are static. You have to learn how to dance with your poster and with your audience. And by dance I mean literally move around them, towards them, around the poster, around the intro, and the discussion. And it almost becomes a beautiful dance. And those who can do it, and I learn from a lot of people that I watch. They move it. They have four or five people. They move around one person. So they're making people around feel part of the poster. And that is better accomplished not when the poster is a static or when the person is static. No, it's when the person is moving around and incorporating the people around the poster.
Alicia Wooten:I remember when I started doing poster sessions, I was so nervous. I doubted about what people wanted to know. And I noticed that I would just go on and on and on and on and on,[laughter] and I really started to see their faces sort of be lost. They didn't want to be there anymore. So when I had that experience, I am very similar to Huda. I will ask them "Do you want the short version or the long version?" And if there's a short version, then I'll give it to them in a very concise way. I will ask them "Are there any specific visuals that you want me to explain?" And sometimes they'll say"No", and sometimes they'll say"Yes, please get into this." And I'll give them a concise answer. I don't have to go into the background unless they ask for it. So when you're doing a standing poster, I think it's a little bit less painful because you're tailoring it to what people want.
Marguerite Matthews:So when it comes to questions, how do you handle those? Are you the type of person that is like, you can interrupt me and ask questions. If you want people to wait until the very end, or maybe even preparing for questions like Huda, especially with your trainees. In what ways do you kind of lob questions at them that you think they might get so that they get comfortable answering? Or, how do you do that where you are trying to be as concise as possible, but maybe not getting thrown off when someone does throw you a curve ball or tries to, maybe has a bit more malicious intent because they are a competitor or they don't buy what you're selling?
Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa:It's a beautiful point about giving talks and I got to tell you, that is the part that makes me also the most nervous. First of all, I always tell my disciples, don't be afraid to be afraid because if people tell you "Oh, I'm comfortable around the questions," that means that they are too arrogant. That means that they're going to pretend that they know it all and that's going to come across.
So rule #1:If you don't know the answer, pause, say you don't know the answer, but you're about to speculate or you're about to hypothesize, you know, so you give it a thoughtful answer, but fully acknowledging that you don't know exactly. It's okay to acknowledge that you don't know something. It is also okay if you're completely stunned, to pause and say "I am stunned, I don't know how to answer this. Maybe give me a few minutes to think about it offline when I come out of the podium, I can talk to you offline about this." Those are simple techniques that if you have those with you the moment that you're going to go to a talk, doesn't matter if it is a President of the United States or a Nobel Lauerate that asks a question, if you know how to think about those things, it'll relax you even more. It'll keep your mind clear and not as tense. So that way you can come up with very, very intelligent answers to many questions. And sometimes it's okay. You know, sometimes the answers are not going to be very eloquent. But people in science, they know that science sometimes is a little bit messy and we don't have answers for everything. So keep that in mind. And the most important thing is welcome those times because there are also times where your science can be made better.
Lauren Ullrich:Mmhmm
Huda Zoghbi:Let me answer the first question, which is when do I prefer people ask questions. It depends on the audience and the size of the room. When it is a room of 500 people or 400 or above, it's often that people leave questions until the end just because they need a microphone and it will not be heard, especially if the talk is being taped. I usually tell people please feel free to interrupt me as I'm speaking in case something unclear. Because I don't want somebody lost in the middle of my talk and now they're lost in the second half. So if they're outside the field and something wasn't clear, I'd rather they raise their hand and ask me. But that happens more in a less formal setting, a setting of 100, 150 people. I haven't seen that happen with 500 or 1, 000 people. That's more formal, like if you're giving a big talk at a symposium. So it's good to wait until the end. I think there are many types of questions one gets, and we have to be prepared for all of them, and take it with stride and not be frazzled. Question #1 could be just curious, really want to know. You answer that question. Question #2, somebody wants to show you they know a lot, and they're asking a question that you've already answered, and they're repeating what you're saying. You just be gracious about it. Say thank you for clarifying that point. Let them go on. Question #3, somebody who's really challenging or being difficult. And in that case, you break their question. You try to reiterate what you think is important. Talks are not the time to confront somebody who's acting badly. That's not to do. I've seen that in meetings. It gets very uncomfortable for everybody else in that audience. You take the high road, you do the best in making the point clear, be objective about it, and don't engage. And you could say, you know,"I actually think the point I made here makes that very clear. And I'll be happy to discuss that after the meeting with you or something like that. Just don't engage in a fight. I've seen that way too many times. I could tell you, it's not just me. It makes everybody uncomfortable.
Marguerite Matthews:That is a great, great tip, Huda. Thank you for saying Lauren and I have both done media training and that's sort of what we've gotten to. But it's hard when you feel, especially I imagine if you're earlier in your career and you feel almost attacked in a way. Like I've done all this hard work and here you are trying to discredit perhaps insert your own interpretation or decision of what this work means. And it can be really disconcerting, but I do think if you focus on what message you want to send to someone, it helps just kind of dispel it a little bit. And you're right, you shouldn't use that as the boxing match. You can do that, you could do that at the reception after.[laughter]
Alicia Wooten:Diplomacy is key here. And I try to follow the rule of "Yes, and." So a lot of times people say "Yes, but." And the "Yes, but" becomes very confrontational. So I'll say "Yes, and." And I love questions during presentations. But depending on the audience, it may not be the right time. And if it's not, I will acknowledge it. I see you have a question. Let me get through this slide and I'll come back to you. And then make sure you keep that in mind. And if there are many questions from the audience, I will often limit it. I will take 3 questions at this time, and at the end, I'll be here to answer any of your questions. So setting the standard in advance to say I don't have enough time to present all my information and give everyone my attention is really important [mmhmm], but everything that Huda said is exactly right. With those hard questions, you just have to acknowledge "I see what you mean. Thank you for sharing. Next question."
Lauren Ullrich:I often say answer the question you wish you were asked instead of maybe necessarily the question that you were asked. Especially if you feel like the question is a little bit tangential to the main points that you want to make. Obviously you can't be so off base that they're like,"she's totally blowing me off." But sometimes you can even like what you we're saying with the "Yes, and" is sort of you start with answering their question and then you take them back into that take home point that you think is really important.
Huda Zoghbi:Yeah, I like, I really like, thank you, Alicia, I like the "Yes, and" approach. That's a beautiful way of putting it. The only problem, Lauren, is answering the question you wished to ask and not the question you're asked, trainees get frustrated with that. Students and fellows, they really feel that, "the person didn't answer the question. Why is that," you know? I like the idea of try, begin to answer, but move to the end and really diverge the discussion into a productive discussion. The only thing I want to add- I think it's really important to keep your sentences brief, especially when you're speaking and when you're answering questions or asking questions. I always tell my students and fellows, don't be wordy. When you're too wordy and going on and on and on and on, someone will be lost. Make them shorter sentences. They can follow your thoughts and immediately get it. It's easier to grasp. They're not likely to be distracted and wonder, thinking about a chore they have to do. So I think brevity is important here.[music]
Lauren Ullrich:Thank you all for sharing your wisdom today. Can I ask each of you for one last piece of parting advice for our audience?
Alicia Wooten:I mean really it depends on where you are in your life. I've always said that it's okay to fail. You're going to fail. You're going to figure out what doesn't work for you, and then just keep trying until you find that perfect match. Whether it's giving a presentation, workshop, or poster session, it's not an easy thing to do. It takes practice, and that's where you take advantage of people in your lab, your mentors, your friends to build that confidence. And the more confident you are in your message, the better the presentation will become.
Huda Zoghbi:Very good point. Totally agree, Alicia. My piece of advice- prepare. Be prepared. And prepared means you put the time in making the best possible slides. You put the time in looking at the flow of the story. Is there a good setup? Is there a good logic? Is it clear? Does one point lead to the others? Not jolting. And being prepared means you have rehearsed it. And people have listened and given you input. They told you "I didn't understand that" so that you can make that clear. And you've been asked questions. So you have practiced. I think this is particularly important for the younger audience that they do all that as much as possible. So we always do that. In my lab, I'll tell you, my students and fellows, they prepare a talk, we go through the slide quickly and I give them input on the slide. We do that a couple of times, then they rehearse it to the lab, they get grilled by the lab, then they rehearse it with me, they get grilled with me. By the time they're ready, nobody can frazzle them at a national meeting. And I have to tell you too, as much as I think you would think I'm experienced when I'm giving a very important talk, let's say it's my Howard Hughes renewal talk, I make sure I present it to many different audiences. I pick up a few assistant professors, go through with them. Then the next time more senior professors. Not because I don't know how to give a talk, but because the audience is going to be very different, with different expertise, I want everyone in the room to understand me. By pulling on diverse audiences, you get that input. That all can be summed up- prepare, prepare, prepare. Because if you go well prepared, you'll have fun giving the talk and your enjoyment will be transferred to the audience.
Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa:My last piece of advice is enjoy everything that you do in science. Not only doing the science, but also telling people about your science. Telling stories about your science. Don't be afraid of being afraid of telling the stories. I think it is scary sometimes to be in front of an audience and having to tell a story that is concise. And I always tell people it is much more challenging to put a five or ten minute story, especially when you've done 15, 20 years of work. But it's also rewarding. Because it allows you to think and clear your mind and be able to tell those beautiful stories that can one day change someone there in the audience, or even more, one day will change the life of a human being.
Lauren Ullrich:And Marguerite, what's your advice?
Marguerite Matthews:I think my advice would be to ask for help. If you are not naturally comfortable with telling stories, or you do get really stuck on the how or the why, or maybe some piece along that continuum. And so it's more difficult for you to sort of figure out how to give a more complete picture. Ask for help, whether it's from a mentor, collaborators, your peers. It's going to take time and yes, you will need to practice. Yes, you will fail. But that's okay. That's how we get better about sharing the reason why we got into science in the first place. It's hard work. There's a lot of times where things don't come together and oftentimes stories don't always make a lot of sense. But it's okay to enlist other people in helping you craft how you want to share things or how you will handle, say, questions. And figuring out maybe the best medium for you to tell the story until you get comfortable enough to be able to pivot from one type of presentation to another. What about you, Lauren? What's your advice?
Lauren Ullrich:I'll build on that and say when you're asking for, like, help and especially when you're asking for feedback, I think sometimes the way you ask for that feedback can make it more or less helpful. Oftentimes people just want to be like "Yeah, it was great!" Like, "sounds good!" But you can ask people, like,"I want you to listen to this in an antagonistic manner. Like, pretend that you're from a lab that does not believe this theory. Or I want you to listen for clarity. Or I want you to pay particular attention to my visuals." And give people permission to be a little more critical. And then you know that they're doing it because you asked them so that the critiques feel I think emotionally a little bit better. But then they also have the permission to be a little harsher on you. And I think it kind of makes things feel a little bit nicer. And then you know that you've presented to your theoretical harshest critic and came through with a better presentation, and that can also make you more confident when you do it for real.
Alfredo Quiñones-Hinojosa:So basically when you're asking for help, look for mentors and tormentors. To balance you.[laughter]
Lauren Ullrich:I like that! I'm gonna steal that.
Marguerite Matthews:I like that![laughter] [music]
Lauren Ullrich:That's all we have time for today on Building Up the Nerve. So thank you to our guests this week for sharing their expertise. Thank you to Ana Ebrahimi, Mariah Hoye, Jimmy Liu, Joe Sanchez, and Tam Vo for production help. And thank you to Bob Riddle for our theme song and music. We'll see you next time when we tackle securing funding for research. You can find past episodes of this podcast and many more grant application resources on the web at ninds.nih.gov.
Marguerite Matthews:Follow us on X @NINDSDiversity. Email us with questions at NINDSNervepod@nih.gov. And make sure you subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app so you don't miss an episode. We'll see you next time.