NINDS's Building Up the Nerve

S5E8: Establishing Your Professional Identity

• NINDS • Season 5 • Episode 8

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In the fifth Season of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke’s Building Up the Nerve podcast, we help you strengthen your science communication skills with tools and advice to use throughout your career. We know that navigating your career can be daunting, but we're here to help—it's our job!

In the eighth episode of the season, we talk about Establishing Your Professional Identity, focusing on tips for defining who you are in your career, and developing skills and strategies to create and communicate who you are, or what your “brand” is, in your field and in the public.

Featuring Thiago Arzua, PhD, Postdoctoral Fellow at Columbia University’s Zuckerman Institute; Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar, PhD, Professor at University of Puerto Rico-Río Piedras Campus; and Erich Jarvis, PhD, Professor at Rockefeller University and Investigator at Howard Hughes Medical Institute.

Resources

Transcript available at http://ninds.buzzsprout.com/.

Lauren Ullrich:

[Intro music] Welcome to Season 5 of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke's Building Up the Nerve, where we help you strengthen your science communication skills with tools and advice to use throughout your career. We know that navigating your career can be daunting, but we're here to help— it's our job![music fades]

Marguerite Matthews:

Hello, I'm Marguerite Matthews, Section Chief for Career Preparation in the Office of Programs to Enhance the Neuroscience Workforce, also known as OPEN, at NINDS.

Lauren Ullrich:

And I'm Lauren Ulrich, Section Chief for Career Advancement in OPEN, and we're your hosts today.

Marguerite Matthews:

In our last episode, we discussed engaging with non-scientists. Today, we're going to talk about establishing your professional identity, including tips on defining who you are in your career, and developing skills and strategies to create and communicate who you are or what your brand is in your field and in the public.[music] Joining us today are Dr. Thiago Arzua, Dr. Erich Jarvis, and Dr. Carmen Maldonado. Let's start with introductions.

Thiago Arzua:

First of all, thank you so much for inviting me to be here. I'm Dr. Thiago Arzua. I am a Postdoc here at the Zuckerman Institute at Columbia University. I study what is commonly called intergenerational trauma. More specifically looking at how stress and trauma can be represented in the brain across different generations. And the three words that would describe, I would say funny or at least trying to be funny, honest, and maybe political would be the last one?

Erich Jarvis:

I'm Erich Jarvis, an Investigator with the Rockefeller University in New York City. I'm also an Investigator with the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. And my work has a lot of directions, but the primary focus is on the neurobiology of spoken language, the underlying neurogenetics that set those brain circuits, and us humans and other species that learn how to imitate sounds like songbirds and parrots. I also run some large scale genome sequencing projects for the Vertebrate Genomes Project to eventually sequence all species on the planet, uh vertebrates, and also Panhuman Genome Project to get human genetic diversity. I do it for my vocal learning research, but something I think is also gonna be beneficial for all of science. And three words that describe my science communication style or philosophy, I would say is engage, educate, and inspire.

Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar:

Thank you so much for inviting me to this wonderful panel. I am very fortunate to be part of this. My name is Carmen Maldonado. I'm Professor of Neuroscience at the Department of Biology at the University of Puerto Rico- Río Piedras. And for the last 28 years I've been a faculty here at my institution, which is one of the premier Hispanic Serving institutions in the nation. And I have dedicated all these years on training graduates and undergraduate students in the field of neurobiology of drug abuse. In particular, my focus of research has been on understanding the molecular and the neuroanatomical substrates of cocaine- seeking behavior in animal models. And most recently, I have been focused on understanding how the endocannabinoid and the oxytocin system interact to establish a comorbidity with anxiety, drug addiction, and depression. And my lab has been focused on trying to address how the role of these two systems are so important in reward. In addition to my research, I have also been involved in several training grants for our students. I am co-PI of the NEURO-ID program, which is part of the NINDS and also the ENDURE community. And also I am a PI for the Neuro-grad program, which is program focused on training future neuroscientists in a more diverse workforce. So I have pretty much a lot of experience on mentoring students. And so it's so interesting that Erich just stole the three words that define me and it's so interesting and for me humbling, because Dr. Jarvis, I known his work for many years and having similarities on this is very exciting for me. So I had written engagement, knowledge, and inspiration, actually. But I think I could add role modeling, perhaps I should bring that.

Lauren Ullrich:

Very nice. Love to discover synergies before we've even really started the podcast, so...

Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar:

So funny! I was like "oh my god!"[laughter]

Lauren Ullrich:

That's great!

Marguerite Matthews:

Or maybe you were just cheating off of his paper. I feel like Lauren does that to me a lot on the podcast.

Lauren Ullrich:

Oh, mmm, mmhmm, mmhmm, I've heard that before. Just because I'm psychic doesn't mean that I'm cheating, Marguerite.

Marguerite Matthews:

We're so linked in.[laughter]

Lauren Ullrich:

[music] Alright, so to start off, thinking kind of big picture, what understanding do you have about what it means to have a professional identity, or sometimes it's also called a "brand," within science and why do you think that is important, building that professional reputation?

Erich Jarvis:

When I think about a professional identity and brand, I'm actually thinking about two things. There's the actual scientific brand. Are you a neuroscientist? Do you study neurobiology of whatever it's going to be, language or genetics of some trait? So there's your scientific brand. I know some people, when you say optogenetics, I know some names that come to mind. But then there is your personal brand. Are you a great communicator? Are you a person who connects people, or collaborates, or are you a lone ranger kind of approach? And so for my personal brand, I've led large groups of people for, you know, sort of big data projects. And so I'm known as a collaborator and also being an underrepresented minority, there's a brand there that, as Carmen said, you know, role models, that's a brand as well.

Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar:

Yeah, I would add, this is something that I think it's extremely important, the identity of a scientist from different perspectives. A documentary called "Picture a Scientist", and it's a wonderful film that everybody should watch, because we have already pre-images of what a scientist should look like. What they should achieve. What are the goals and also how they look like. And so when we talk about identities, one of the things I have lived my life about is that, uh, when you enter a group, a societal group, as a scientist, and then you bring something different, in this case, you're a woman, a woman of color, Latina, different things that from your perspective enriches the process, I think that is an added value to your science because it's not like it determines what you end up researching, but it makes you engage yourself in serving a community that really want to be like you. He wants to study, you know, drug addiction. So having someone that does the same that we would like to do, makes a difference. So I think we should not be shy to talk about what defines us when we see ourselves as scientists. And I think that's a very important aspect of what we can be and how we can improve our science.

Lauren Ullrich:

And Carmen one thing I wonder about, so you always have the most fabulous outfits.[laughter] I love your style, but it is very like, different than kind of the standard scientific style. Is that something that you've done intentionally, or do you think about how that contributes to your professional identity?

Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar:

Well, I have to say that I call it my armor. I think that one of the things I faced when I moved to the United States, of course, I am from Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico is part of the United States. We are territory. And there's a lot of communication of our communities with the U.S. But there's a lot of stereotypes, right? A lot of implicit bias that goes along with what people think you are and things like that. So I decided that wherever I would go, I will have a representation of a person that your culture and the way you look, it represents. And that's what I tell my students, when you go to give your talk, it's not that you have to look amazing or great, it's just that you have to show respect for what you're doing and the way you look is important. And for me, my way is using colors and jewelry, you know, and things like that, that I just enjoy embellishing.[laughs] But that doesn't put aside about the importance of what I bring to the table. And that is something that I have learned to understand when you enter environments where you're not so understood.

Erich Jarvis:

That reminds me, I didn't do this, but I noticed that part of my brand has come through when people introduce me, sometimes they talk about my dance passion. I was training to be a professional dancer before I became a scientist. And that seems to inspire people to think, well, if they're into dance or the arts, they can be a scientist too, as well.

Thiago Arzua:

Yeah, I think building upon what, Erich and Carmen mentioned, I think to me, the idea of having a personal identity or a brand has a lot to do with aligning how you see yourself and what do you think you are and how do you want to be perceived in the world? Despite all the jokes about like, not wanting to be perceived, people will be perceived. And especially for the trainees in the audience who are either applying for a new position, or applying to grad school, or anything like this, people will perceive you no matter what. I always thought of this as okay, I can have control over certain things. I can have control of the internet presence that I'm going to have during an interview. I have control over the, if people ask my interest, if you ask what else do you do, or how do you see your science? Like, I have control over the personal part of personal identity. People will judge and perceive, and, like, they are going to try to assume all these things. I think a lot of people think of this as, I don't know, creating a different persona, but it's more about finding out who you are and like how you align that with the way that people are going to perceive you either way. So I feel a lot about what Carmen said of every now and then being in places that might not be so understandable.

Marguerite Matthews:

Yeah, I think how you show up, it starts within, right? Like, do you feel comfortable in who you are and what you want to try and communicate. And that can come through, right? I love that you said, Erich, that you talk about being a dancer. I mean, cause also men aren't typically thought of as being these classically trained dancers. And so I think it changes a lot of how we think about many different things. And Carmen, you also inspire me with the way you dress because it matches exactly who you are, right? It's not "oh my gosh, Carmen, I didn't know that you were so colorful or that you like so much jewelry!" It's like "of course you do!" And I find that a really important piece of who we are and how we show up. And I was in a communications training and I had on these large earrings and I'm going through a practice talk and the trainer was like "You did great! The only suggestion I would make is to not have really large, noticeable earrings on, because it could be distracting." And I thought to myself, "people tell me they're going to sign into the webinar to see what earrings I'm wearing." Because I've become known over the pandemic as this woman who wears really bright, colorful, handmade earrings." And it was important to me to communicate that to the trainer that it is part of my brand and I hope I'm not distracting. I've heard good feedback of things I've said, but also recognizing that maybe there is a balance in the way that people are taking in information. So, thinking about the ways that your brand, whether visual or just the story you share with other people, how that connects you with other folks, can you all talk a little bit about ways in which your brand has opened up new opportunities for collaboration or perhaps having different connections within your scientific communities?

Erich Jarvis:

By the way, another word to think about all this is your essence. For me, you know, taking off of the dance, actually, I get a lot of people from the dance community reaching out to me for some scientific collaborations to the point now we're starting to study the neurobiology of dance and its relationship with language and vocal learning.

Marguerite Matthews:

Oh, that is so cool!

Erich Jarvis:

Yeah. So it allows one to connect a scientific community with a non-scientific community when you express this. So maybe large earrings, you might get some connections with the, uh, jewelry industry, who knows? But still, uh, for me, yeah, that, that has happened and that's just one example.

Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar:

Again, I bring up how to belong to a big community. How do you get to be part of that community. And then with your branding, seeing it's importance. Make it a scientific, like a collaboration, with others, when you are in process of these programs for training students that you have to make a lot of connections with other institutions. Trying to create awareness of the needs of this community. And then make them understand how uh, similar we are from the science part of it. All scientists want to reach a new knowledge and provide it to our community. You know, close the gaps on things that we don't know. And these students or us colleagues in different parts of the world, would like to create this collaboration. So, you may stand out for some reason, but the moment you engage this communication and you show that you are partners in this, it makes a total difference. And then you get to know other branding and perhaps you say "oh, this person is being very successful this way because he or she sees a way of engaging others through personal interest or a scientific interest. And so what I have found out is that once you're in the group, and you establish yourself, and you show competence, and you show that you know what you're talking about, the group will respect what you want to bring to this social environment and/or scientific environment.

Thiago Arzua:

I have some like, very direct, almost made up examples. But, back in 2020, when all of the protests were happening for Black Lives Matter, I remember there was some debate online about like "oh, you should just stick to science. It's about science." And at the time, I was very upset about that, and I made this giant thread on Twitter talking about all the ways that neuroscience has been used to justify racism. Not necessarily because of that thread, but I ended up like thinking about this a lot. I ended up like talking to other people a lot. If you fast forward like about a month, this when Black In Neuro started, and this was all again, back on Twitter. It was when Dr. Angeline Dukes, Professor Angeline Dukes now, tweeted something saying like "so when are we having Black In Neuro Week?" And again, I think because I was already somewhat in the circle of people who were debating and discussing these things, I was one of the co-founders, helped them, like start it from the scratch. And one of the first panelists that we had was Dr. Bianca Jones Marlin, who not by accident, is now my postdoc advisor. When I saw her speak, she was like about to start her new lab. And I remember, again on Twitter, just asking "do you have a moment to talk about you know, what does it mean to open a lab in 2020? What are the motivations?" And throughout the whole of 2021, we started, like, talking back and forth on Zoom and like, having these super quick meetings, but every few months. And then at some point, it just clicked that like, we can work together. Like, not just the science part of this, but I have an interest in doing science that matters. And I will not, not talk about certain topics because they might be controversial. And I don't know, like, put the cherry on top of everything, we're now co-teaching. So, she's teaching a class at Columbia, and I'm teaching that same class at a woman's prison called Taconic Correctional Facility in upstate New York. So it evolved from having that strong, I guess, political presence, or not neccessarily political, but having a presence that, "I don't want to dissociate my science from the politics or from the real world," to now not only collaborating, but working with Bianca and working even in parts that are outside what we would think of the research world.

Erich Jarvis:

What a network of how things work out because I interact with Bianca for a number of things as well, as well as giving her mentoring feedback to set up her lab at the time. And also what does it mean to discuss underrepresented minority issues in the scientific community and so forth in terms of your own career. So, it's great to hear that story.

Lauren Ullrich:

More synergies. I love it. So it sounds like from what you all have said that you all kind of define your professional identity broader than " just the science," right? And kind of going back to Thiago's point of trying to align with what you want to present, with what people are receiving, in what ways do you communicate your identity to others? And then how do you know if you are successful in communicating what you want to communicate?

Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar:

One of the things that I have learned is that when you have something to say, especially when you hear a discourse that is dissonating, doesn't make any sense to you, and it's some way based on information that is not really accurate. Let's just come up with a situation where you go into a committee where you are, for example, the only Latina person in the committee. And then you are supposed to represent everybody else. But in my case, what I do is that I convey my opinion in a very respectful way, because we're talking about peers here, and some people perhaps don't have the knowledge. So they need be educated, and be exposed to a different point of view. And then what I have learned is that if you convey that in a respectful way, you bring them to your same level, and again, talk about partnerships. Not talk about you're here and I'm here. And when we come together, what I have come to learn is that this conversation can take people to change their minds. And then they are really become advocates for what you just brought. And then they call you for more committees. They want you to preside the committee. They want you to share your views to others. But it takes time because not everybody is in the same wavelength But my take home message is that you should not stay silent. If you think that you have to express yourself, make it a scientific or in particularly make a comment that impacts your community, you have to speak up.

Erich Jarvis:

It's hard to quantify how do you know science communication is successful, right? But the measure that I like to use in general, whether it's a committee of scientific people or it's something you're presenting to the general public, my measure of success would be did they understand me? Was I able to get the message across regardless if they agree or disagree with that information or point of view that I'm supplying? Did they understand the point of view? If they didn't understand it, then I know I'm not successful.[mmhmm]

Thiago Arzua:

Yeah, it's not just hard. I think even when you're very successful, these things are going to take a long time. What I like to think is usually if you are successful, people would usually reach out to you saying something like "I saw this something and it reminded me of you." But these things will take time. It won't be necessarily exactly after you give a talk or after you talk to someone, you're going to get that feedback. It's very similar between talking to scientists and talking to the broader public in a sense that, yes, we can talk in jargon for all the time in the world, but like when it comes down to it, what we're talking, even if it's like a room of not just neuroscientists, but like people who are interested in genetics and neurodevelopment and super, super niche, usually the discussions that we're having are very basic. They are about directions to follow about what to fund or not fund. They are about why this paper, not this paper. So I feel like if you're trying to get a message across, to get to Erich's point, it needs to be easy enough for people to understand, regardless of whether you're a scientist or not.

Erich Jarvis:

Yeah, and actually to add to that, depending on your audience that you're trying to communicate to, you need to speak in a language that they can understand. I've known some people who try to speak in a complicated language and it makes them sound like they're smart, but the people listening don't get it. And then you're not successful. So you need to be able to speak in multiple languages, even if it's all English, right? For different scientific communities, the science community in general versus the public, and others.

Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar:

Yeah, you have to be in synchrony with your audience and you have to have sensitivity of who's your audience, where are they coming from, as much as possible. And then engage and listen because you need to listen to them because maybe you don't agree with what they're saying, or you're trying to convey a new idea. And if, they don't get it, it's maybe because you're not being very clear, but you need to listen to them. And then they say "okay, what did I say you didn't understand?" And then that communication, that interaction, enriches the process, of course, and shows respect again.

Marguerite Matthews:

So there's a little bit of a generational difference on the podcast across all of us. And we may find comfort in speaking up and speaking out in different forums. So can you all talk a little bit about how you build your presence with peers, with your community? I mean, we've heard Thiago has used Twitter, and has built and found community around that social media tool. But I imagine Carmen and Erich, that's probably not the first place you're thinking about is a social media platform to go and talk about the things that are important to you. So how do you build your presence? How do you let people know who you are as a scientist, the things you care about, and perhaps build community and opportunities for scientific and professional growth?

Erich Jarvis:

Yeah, I do use social media to a certain degree. In general, what I find is depending on what level you are in your career, the amount of personal information that you want to let people know, does make a difference, I think for different generations. So I'm not the type that talks about what happens in my life on a daily basis. Some people love to see that. Maybe that'll work. And I'm not totally against it either. It's just that I'm conscientious as a professor at a research one institution, that I might have to be communicating in a way that has certain cautions that a student may not have to worry about. But that student should think about years later as well. If they're a professor, you know, what they could say, you know, 10 years earlier. But I do want people to know that scientists aren't, boring, closed-minded people that sit in a lab all day long with a white coat. You know, I use Instagram more now than anything else, you know, post something about a dance concert that I was in or something about discovering something new in some mountainous area that I go visit after a conference to let people know that I have a normal, semi-normal life.[laughter] And I'm not only just talking about the latest paper that's published. But I do also use the social media platform to promote my students and my postdocs and others in my lab with their publications and awards and other things.

Lauren Ullrich:

And Erich, I remember at SfN, oh my gosh, maybe it was like five years ago now, uh, you participated in one of the storytelling sessions where you shared pretty personal anecdotes. And did you have any reservations about doing that?

Erich Jarvis:

No. So yeah, in that storytelling session, I remember I talked about my father's life who wanted to become a scientist, but he himself, after getting divorced my mother, and sort of dropping out of school, became homeless for many years and so on, and how that impacted me. And so talking about your father, who is homeless, eventually was killed, wasn't an easy thing to do. And I find maybe what allowed me to overcome fear of people knowing about some story of my life and my family's life, being in the performing arts community as a scientist, you learn how to be private in public. But carefully, you know, decide what you're going to talk about. And you have to have your own internal strength. If someone criticizes you for talking about something about your personal life, you have to have your own inner strength to know that you're doing this to help people, and not to self-aggrandize your own self or make the world seem like everything is going to crap or something like that. So yeah, I've been comfortable talking about personal things in public, and that's why I was able to do that at the storytelling event at the Society for Neuroscience meeting.

Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar:

In my case, I think we should bring the topic of intersectionality of all of us. There's so many things that intersect of what we represent. And that has created networks for us. We have networks that we feel part of. And so we can engage in creating new spaces for conversations, spaces where people get to know what you do. So early on in my career, I had a network, a scientific network, that I don't use as often, but these networks that helped me grow as a scientist. So I would tap on, you know, interacting with them, in particular Society for Neuroscience was a very important forum for me as I was growing as a scientist. And also these other much smaller communities of neuropharmacology, ACNP at the time. And those communities, those social groups, where you stand out because of your science and because of your intersectionality, of course. In my case, the issue of being a woman in science, a very important aspect of being minority for a long period of time. And so trying to create those networks and capitalizing on the conversations that we do on these networks is important. With regards to, eh, the use of digital media, I have to say, unlike Thiago, that he's a digital native, I'm a digital immigrant, so I [laughs], I go into the digital world very, uh, I should say you know, I do have a X account because it's no longer Twitter. The other day, my students say "look, Dr. Maldonado, its not Twitter its X." And I'm like "oh, I'm sorry!"[laughter]

Thiago Arzua:

I'm never calling it that.

Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar:

I know! And I am like "okay, in X." But now, I find very useful, the X, from the standpoint of like Erich said, promoting my students, promoting things that matters to me. Reposting, I'm not so good at doing all that other stuff, but I certainly do repost. And of course, uh, the rest is through one-on-one in person. I think that has made a difference for me throughout my students and the time I've been investing on creating this community, wonderful scientist in the making. So that's how I've been working with that.

Marguerite Matthews:

Yeah, I think conferences and having those smaller groups where you're identifying with people who are similar to you, like you said, Carmen, whether it's a scientific topic or something more related to your identity. Like that was the old school way of really building your message and getting to bounce it off of other people who knew you in a way like were able to really help you hone that. And it's a little bit nicer now that we are so connected with social media, but it can be difficult to make that switch. If you are so used to having those personal connections that you're using your whole body, your voice, and everything to communicate who you are. And digital, some things get lost in translation to kind of keep up with this digital immigrant, digital native, sort of vibe. Um, Lauren and I both coming up in a time where we saw social media be born, whereas I think probably Thiago, I'm going to guess your age a little bit as being younger than us, where that's what you know, right? That is like your first place of connection oftentimes is in a social media context. And so learning how to try to juggle all of those things, you know, it's a really interesting thing. And I really like this digital immigrant versus native, sort of-- [ laughter]

Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar:

And I, I just wanted to say that I know how powerful social media is. For example, in Puerto Rico, we have a whole community network called NeuroBoricuas, which gathers all Puerto Rican neuroscientists, a young, new, generation of neuroscientists, in this social set of World Wide Web. And just last year, Society for Neuroscience gave the education award to Christian Bravo, who is the founder of this NeuroBoricuas. And so, like I said, it's same as Black In Neuro, of course, and uh, NeuroBoricuas, there's a lot of things that are emerging in the digital world that create networks that go beyond our borders. And I think that is extremely important.

Thiago Arzua:

Yeah, and I'm very flattered, but I do remember a time before social media. I remember specifically freshman or sophomore year of college, how there was definitely a switch between social media being this thing where you just post everything. Like you just post every single thing that you eat, like no bars kept. And I remember, I think I was at a, I was already kind of a nerdy kid, so I was like in a chemistry club or something, and we were selecting people to be our treasurer or something, and we look at their Facebook profile and it was like, a picture of them upside down, doing a keg stand, and like some crazy, like that was the profile picture. Like some crazy posts. And I remember feeling like "oh, that cannot be the way that social media is going to continue to be; it's not just going to be forever this 24/7 I'm going to post everything that I ever do." But I do remember a time before that. What Carmen mentioned is so important because it reminds me of how even in the times of social media nowadays, there's something very local about how you build these connections and how you build your own identity. I realized since moving to New York two and a half years ago, how little I rely on social media compared to before when I was in Wisconsin. Not say anything bad about Wisconsin, but it was difficult to find other networks and find more people, especially being like a smaller city. I know New York City is like, one of the biggest in the world, but like, it became easier here to go to Rockefeller, to go to talks at Rockefeller, to go to NYU, to go to other institutions and have those connections the old school way. But I sympathize a lot with the people who are like in smaller towns and don't have that ability or don't have that possibility. And I will say, unfortunately, to Erich's point, yeah, Twitter is not what it used to be. So we should also not put all of our eggs in one basket. I feel like a whole lot of scientists are now like scrambling and trying to figure out what to do next because the golden age of science Twitter is, is gone.

Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar:

Yeah, I think the future is these networks and digital, creating societies that interact because of their interests or needs. Also in Puerto Rico, we have Ciencia PR (Puerto Rico), which it gathers all STEM Puerto Ricans from the diaspora and in Puerto Rico. And this was developed by Daniel Colón-Ramos, which is also a wonderful neuroscientist.

Lauren Ullrich:

And previous podcast guest!

Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar:

Yes![laughter] And also Giovanna Guerrero and Mónica Feliú, of course, that was also in this podcast. So again, creating these kinds of communities, it just flourishes, and I think it's important.

Lauren Ullrich:

Mmm. So speaking of the future, a scientific career is long. Hopefully it will be long. What happens if and when your scientific or professional interests change? Like you spent all this time building a brand, building a reputation, maybe in a certain area of science. And then you decide, I want to go from birds to dance, right? How do you rebrand? Or what if you feel like your professional identity, you've tried to build it one way and it doesn't align with how you see yourself or how you want to be perceived? How do you either establish or re-establish that reputation?

Erich Jarvis:

Yeah, well, I've gone through some iterations myself. And what I've noticed over time is that I haven't lost, one brand. I just sort of added brands to what we're already doing. So now I'm heavily involved in the genomics community, but I haven't left the neuroscience community. I just sort of try to marry the two together. And one thing that I did notice in changing brands or evolving brands is that the advice you often get is, you know, stick with what you're good at. And you're taking a risk, you're not going to get the funding for this new area because you're a novice in it. Even, you know, more senior in your career, you're going to be criticized for being a novice in some area. Why should you go in that direction? And I find that's not good advice to follow. I find that sometimes when you move fields, or switch fields, or combine fields together, you produce more impactful science than staying where you're at. It's that sort of integrative, interdisciplinary nature usually leads to bigger impacts. And so I consider that bad advice, but how are you going to get it funded, right? My way of trying to get a new direction funded is not go to traditional funding routes like an NIH R01 or NSF investigator- initiated grant. It is to go to private foundations or the federal funding efforts that allow you to go outside the box and go in different, new, bolder directions. And that's the way I try to support a new brand. The other is, find collaborators who are experts in the new field that you're going in and collaborate with them. Try to learn from them and become an expert yourself. And finally, I would say is just don't have fear. Do what really is in your heart, but really is driving your desire, your wishes. And of course your funding sources, what the questions they want you to answer. Do that, and let the question drive what direction you're going to take more than somebody's advice about where you should be an expert in or not.

Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar:

That's great, Erich. I think that's a wonderful advice. What I have found is that recently, with my experience, because I have also done some administrative positions in my institution, one of my other personas is a true defender of public education and Hispanic Serving Institutions. I think Minority Serving Institutions are really an important source of the future of science in the United States and the world. And we can contribute immensely to the top schools in so many ways. So that's why then I've been doing another aspect of writing institutional grants to bring money to create the infrastructure and the opportunities that these wonderful students have. So I've been quite successful in bringing millions of dollars to the University of Puerto Rico- Rio Piedras through infrastructure grants. And that has brought me another perspective of how we as scientists can also serve our institution well through providing them with the opportunities to grow. And it's a very different discourse from of course, very esteemed scenarios in New York, Columbia, Rockefeller. They have a whole other way of addressing support for your institution. But in our case, we are from the roots up, you know? We have to understand where we're coming from and also engage other partners. That's why we're looking at partnerships with other institutions. So, what we bring is to basically build. Build, build, build. And that's one of the things I am transforming my interest into supporting my institution, which I've been part of since I was five.[laughter] So, so, yes, it's an emotional component as well, I think. And I will stop by saying not everybody stays in one institution for years on end. This is quite unusual. But in my case, I had the privilege to be able to return to my alma mater and serve it. And so I know some of us understand how valuable that is.

Thiago Arzua:

And I think back to what we were mentioning in the beginning of the podcast about how much your personal identity should tie into who you are as a person. I know it sounds redundant, but I don't think even when I heard Erich give his whole trajectory from the dancing to the birds, it never sounded to me like "oh, something dramatic shifted." No, like, it's still hopefully just you making these decisions. It might take some introspection to figure out, like, why did I go from this field to this field? Or why did I move from this to this? But it's still you and your interests. So even though it might sound like a rebranding on the outside, it always comes from that perspective of what were you interested in here and what made you get interested in this? And it sounds a little bit, maybe like a personal statement, but it is true that there is always these links, there's always going to be some form of connection between one role and the other. Or like one type of work and the other. I think it has a lot to do with like finding what part of those links, finding what ties you from this place to that place, even if there's like a component of chance, there's a component of, well, the reality is because I moved here and found this thing. It has to go back to what makes you interested in that topic or in that type of work. And I think that's always going to go back to who you are as a person.

Lauren Ullrich:

Beautiful.[music] So thank you all for sharing your wisdom today. Can I ask each of you for one last piece of parting advice for our listeners?

Erich Jarvis:

I would say, what do we need today in our society to make science thrive even more? And I feel what we need is better communication of our scientific endeavors and discoveries to the public. And in my generation, when I was a student, we were kind of discouraged to communicate with the public media because either they can get it wrong or you're overselling yourself. To be a pure scientist, you shouldn't really be trying to do that. Let your science speak for itself to the community. But you need to translate that to the public. And we are not brought up doing that well as scientists. And you can see the consequences of it because you get these views out there in the public that are just totally off or an anti-science kind of movement as well. So my advice is, yes, communicate well to your local scientific community. But really learn how to become good communicators to the public and take action in communicating to the public. Because they need a better source of information for their science than what's happening now.

Carmen Maldonado-Vlaar:

What I would add is that everybody represents. You represent. We represent someone or some community, and that is something that you bring that is vital to the table. And that's why I feel that when you engage in scenarios where you're sharing your science, through you, you're creating more opportunities for others. Because when you're present, your presence, regardless of your background, really matters. And I think that the more we bring together a diverse science workforce, the more it will grow toward having a more equal and representative of our science. From the genetic work where your sample should not be Eurocentric, to everything else, we should be a place and a society that we embrace diversity, always.

Thiago Arzua:

Yeah I think very much in the same vein of the two advices before, something that I'm still not necessarily struggling with, but like learning to deal with, is how much your personal identity and the way you're going to present yourself, especially if you're coming from an underrepresented background in science, matters more to other people than you would imagine. I'm sure there's been multiple people that looked up to Erich Jarvis being "oh, my god, I didn't know I could do this. I didn't know I could do dance and become all of these like amazing things." The same way that I recently, when I was at Rockefeller, I realized that Daniel [Mucida], who's a professor there, also an HHMI investigator, was the first professor that is from Brazil that wasn't related to like, a Brazilian connection or anything like that. It was just, he was there and he was Brazilian. And I've been in the U.S. for 12 years now, and that had never happened before. And I realized like "oh, this is, this is a new feeling." So even if you don't realize these things, you're going to have an impact on someone by just being your very authentic self and being not just developing, you know, that professional part of your identity, but by being who you are, and not shying away from showing your personality, not shying away from any part of who you are as a person. That impact is going to take years and might not be always like something that you are conscious of, but it's so important and it's something that we don't fully understand the impact that this is going to have, like, 10, 20 years down the road.

Lauren Ullrich:

And Marguerite, what's your advice?

Marguerite Matthews:

I, for once, a guest has taken my advice. Thiago, I think what you said about kind of knowing thyself and leading with that, right? Like, you never know who you will impact by being present, but also recognizing that people connect on all different sorts of axes of identity and commonalities and all the quirky things you think make you annoying and weird, are probably the very same characteristics that draw people to you and make them want to know more about you and the things that you care about. But along those lines, I'd also say community is really important. And that's how we develop who we are is by taking risks, being parts of groups, connecting with people. Whether that's through social media, through in person gatherings, finding online forums, that's how we shape the ways in which we want to communicate ourselves. Because we're getting real time feedback from others who we respect, who we find a common interest with, and that's really all a part of evolving and how we want to show ourselves. We might be authentic to ourselves, but maybe there are certain parts that aren't getting to shine through for one reason or another. And being able to sharpen it with other iron that you're around. So I think being who you are, but being who you are around other people who can appreciate who you are. What about you, Lauren? What's your advice?

Lauren Ullrich:

I feel like, maybe one thing we haven't really touched on is that sometimes you can be different people in different situations. And that doesn't necessarily mean that you're being fake or you're being disingenuous, but just different aspects of your personality can shine in different areas and you don't have to feel like you have to be everything everywhere all at once. And I think also to go back to, um, what Thiago was saying is like, you're going to be perceived no matter what, so you might as well, be perceived in a way that you agree with. And that really jives with the person that you want to present. And so I think it pays to just be thoughtful about the things that you choose to engage in, how you choose to engage in them, what you choose to speak on or not. And so, yeah, I think that's where I'll leave it.[outro music] So that's all we have time for today on Building Up the Nerve. Thank you to our guests this week for sharing their expertise. Thank you to Ana Ebrahimi, Mariah Hoye, Jimmy Liu, Joe Sanchez, and Tam Vo for production help. And thank you to Bob Riddle for our theme song and music. That's a wrap on Season Five! So, You can find past episodes of this podcast and many more grant application resources on the web at ninds.nih.gov.

Marguerite Matthews:

Email us with questions at NINDSNervepod@nih.gov. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app so you don't miss an episode. And be sure to go back and listen to seasons one through four. We'll see you next time.